dangerous chimney?

[JK]

Just been to look at a house, which was really nice, plenty of stuff that needs doing! But I noticed one of the chimney breasts has been removed , so I had a look in the roof space. At first what I saw looked pretty bad, though I couldn't get close enough to really see. It seemed like they had not taken the chimney away, so most of the chimney breast remained in the loft. the bottom few feet above the rafters had been partially removed, then about 8 courses up it was full width and seemed to be supported by a large red steel bracket on either side, bolted into the wall, with some kind of shelf acting like a lintel. The partial bit at the bottom seemed to be resting on a couple of lengths of angle iron propped on bricks on the rafters.

Assuming I've got this right, this is really bad isn't it? The presence of the steelwork makes it look like a proper job was done, but the lower bit on the makeshift supports makes me think otherwise. I really like the house, but is there any way to proceed with a purchase?

ASCII drawing attempt:

################### ################### ################### ################### Full width chimney breast ################### ################### ################### ################### ################### ][===================][ Steel things ][ ########## ][ ][ ######### ][ ######### Partial chimney breast ########## o o Couple of bars on the rafters

[Peter Taylor]

JK wrote

Congrats on the ASCII art JK!

The steel gallows brackets make it sound to me as though the job was done reasonably thoroughly - I have seen so many of these where the whole stack is resting on the ceiling joists, so it is really not all that bad. Ideally the brickwork under the brackets should have been corbelled (stepped) back to the party wall rather than being supported on the joists, but this is not too serious. Far more worrying for me is that the weight of the chimney stack above the roof is now eccentrically loaded on the party wall, which means it is in danger of leaning over. I have seen this happen quite often in older properties, and it causes quite serious damage sometimes. If the stack was to lean over far enough to collapse, or even just lose a chimney pot, you can imagine how dangerous this could be, as well as the damage and mess it would cause. A far better way of supporting the chimney breast in the loft would be to provide a steel beam long enough to bear on the main front and rear external walls. This would restore the full support which is now missing.

Only you can decide whether this is important enough to pull out of the purchase. I wouldn't say it was, as long as you know there might be a problem you have to tackle in the future, and particularly if you like the house - it wouldn't be a really major job to improve the situation.

It would a good idea to have a full structural survey done and then if the Surveyor feels the problem is serious you can use the report to try to get the price reduced.

Peter

[JK]

It confused me - the lower bit seems like a half-fearted effort, but fiting the brackets looks more like a proper job.

Far more worrying for me is that the weight of the chimney stack above

The chimney looks pretty straight. I assume the next door house did not have their's done, hence the remaining bits in the roof. That would mean the party wall at that point would be braced to some extent by the remaining breast?

BTW I think the rooms look much the worse for the removal of the chimney breast.

A far better way of supporting the chimney breast in the loft would be

Hmmm....wonder how much a 25' rsj would cost!

We do like the house, though it seems a bit overpriced given the amount of work that needs doing. But I would not be able to sleep soundly knowing a ton of bricks were resting on the rafters!

Yes. I was hoping to avoid a structural; ones that I've seen just say things like "The chimney looks badly done, I recommend you get a chimney specialist to look at it." I wondered about asking the seller if he has building control approval for the work, as I presume it would be required for what amounts to quite serious structural work. I can't believe it has it but it would make a good bargaining chip.

THnaks for your help

JK

[Owain]

"JK" wrote | Just been to look at a house, which was really nice, plenty of stuff | that needs doing! But I noticed one of the chimney breasts has been | removed , ... | Assuming I've got this right, this is really bad isn't it? The | presence of the steelwork makes it look like a proper job was done, | but the lower bit on the makeshift supports makes me think otherwise. | I really like the house, but is there any way to proceed with a purchase?

The removal of the chimney breast should have been the subject of a Building Regulations application. (If on a party wall, Party Wall Act provisions may also apply.) If you tell your solicitor about the alterations she/he can specifically chase up whether this application was ever approved by the council. You could also get a structural engineer (CEng MIStructE) to do a report on the chimney breast only.

Assuming you are buying in England or Wales, you should be able to get this cleared up before any offer you make is binding on you.

Owain

[JK]

It confused me - the lower bit seems like a half-fearted effort, but fiting the brackets looks more like a proper job.

Far more worrying for me is that the weight of the chimney stack above

The chimney looks pretty straight. I assume the next door house did not have their's done, hence the remaining bits in the roof. That would mean the party wall at that point would be braced to some extent by the remaining breast?

BTW I think the rooms look much the worse for the removal of the chimney breast.

A far better way of supporting the chimney breast in the loft would be

Hmmm....wonder how much a 25' rsj would cost!

We do like the house, though it seems a bit overpriced given the amount of work that needs doing. But I would not be able to sleep soundly knowing a ton of bricks were resting on the rafters!

Yes. I was hoping to avoid a structural; ones that I've seen just say things like "The chimney looks badly done, I recommend you get a chimney specialist to look at it." I wondered about asking the seller if he has building control approval for the work, as I presume it would be required for what amounts to quite serious structural work. I can't believe it has it but it would make a good bargaining chip.

THnaks for your help

JK

[JK]

It confused me - the lower bit seems like a half-fearted effort, but fiting the brackets looks more like a proper job.

Far more worrying for me is that the weight of the chimney stack above

The chimney looks pretty straight. I assume the next door house did not have their's done, hence the remaining bits in the roof. That would mean the party wall at that point would be braced to some extent by the remaining breast?

BTW I think the rooms look much the worse for the removal of the chimney breast.

A far better way of supporting the chimney breast in the loft would be

Hmmm....wonder how much a 25' rsj would cost!

We do like the house, though it seems a bit overpriced given the amount of work that needs doing. But I would not be able to sleep soundly knowing a ton of bricks were resting on the rafters!

Yes. I was hoping to avoid a structural; ones that I've seen just say things like "The chimney looks badly done, I recommend you get a chimney specialist to look at it." I wondered about asking the seller if he has building control approval for the work, as I presume it would be required for what amounts to quite serious structural work. I can't believe it has it but it would make a good bargaining chip.

THnaks for your help

JK

[Peter Taylor]

JK

Remember the report could save you up to 10 times the fee or even more!

If anybody working for me put that in a report they would be on the carpet next morning. It's a cop out by someone who doesn't know enough to be doing the job properly. What on earth is a "chimney specialist"? A surveyor should ideally be experienced and knowledgeable enough to feel confident about giving advice on things like dampness, woodworm, rot, bulging and cracking walls, leaning chimney stacks etc. Sadly in these days of dishonest and litigious clients you can understand why PI insurance policies often prevent him from doing so.

You should get a more sensible answer if you make sure you use a "Chartered Building Surveyor" and not just a "Chartered Surveyor", who often are valuers or estate agents who have little experience of the technical aspects of buildings.

Good idea. I don't think it's strictly necessary to have approval for removing a chimney breast per se, but you don't need to mention that.

[Owain]

"JK" wrote | BTW I think the rooms look much the worse for the removal of the | chimney breast.

Some studwork and plasterboard later ... voila! a chimney breast.

| > A far better way of supporting the chimney breast in the loft | > would be to provide a steel beam long enough to bear on the main | > front and rear external walls. This would restore the full support | > which is now missing. | Hmmm....wonder how much a 25' rsj would cost!

Not-a-lot really. The cost is in putting it into place ...

| > It would a good idea to have a full structural survey done ... | Yes. I was hoping to avoid a structural; ones that I've seen just say | things like "The chimney looks badly done, I recommend you get a chimney | specialist to look at it."

Get a structural engineer (NOT surveyor) to report on the chimney only. If the work is satisfactory it will confirm that, and you may be able to apply for a Regularisation Cert from building control. If the work isn't satisfactory you will need the engineer's report and work spec to take to builders for tendering.

Owain