Damp Meters

Does anyone have experience of these (e.g.

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I've read elsewhere (in this ng, possibly) that they tend to give "optimistic" readings (i.e. if you're a contractor), but an extract from the surveyor's report to the bank offering a mortgage to the prospective buyer of our house states that there's some damp (of which we know absolutely nothing), and that a report from a damp-proofing contractor should be obtained.

The buyer seems to think that it's up to us to address this, although we disagree, and I want to do some checking myself.

Reply to
Apellation Controlee
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If I was a buyer, I'd want to commission the report myself. Then if it's wrong, I can sue those who wrote the report. However, the buyer might decide to reduce the price of his offer (to cover extra costs), so getting a report yourself might show there is no damp.

Reply to
charles

The excerpt of the report we've been given states that the valuation for mortgage is consistent with the present state of the property.

Reply to
Apellation Controlee

Most of those say timber. You probably want one which does plaster too, and it will need a different setting or scale for that.

They will always show some damp, and you need to know how to interpret it.

The buyer is wrong, but has handed you an opportunity on a plate. Ask your estate agent to recommend someone. The estate agent trade couldn't be more bent, and they will find someone who gives a report showing no damp, because that helps ensure they get their seller's commission. Even if the seller found someone to do it themselves, your estate agent will probably find out and knoble them - that whole trade works that way, and it's all geared around your estate agent getting the fastest possible sale, which feeds the back-handers to the other trades.

Reply to
Andrew Gabriel

+1. I would never trust any report about anything commissioned by the vendor.

This is why the homesellers' packs that were required for a while were a waste of time and money.

Reply to
John Williamson

Two pins you stick into the substrate. They just measure the resistance between the pins, just touch 'em gently onto a surface, poor contact > "dry". Ram the pins in making good contact > "wet".

Real damp shows itself with staining of interior wall finishes, mold behind furniture, smell, efflorescence etc. Outside by algae growth, staining. Exterem

What sort of "surveyors report"? I don't know actual terms they use these days, but they go from:

The surveyor stopped outside, in the dark, the building exists and didn't appear to from the end of the drive about to fall down. He didn't get out of his car. - "Mortgage Valuation".

"The surveyor wandered about outside at ground level only. Came in poked about a bit but didn't move any furniture, lift carpets, enter the roof space (but may have popped his head through the trap). - "Home Buyers Report".

The surveyor spent a couple days, moving furniture lifting carpets and floor boards to inspect all building voids. Went up into the roof spaces and up to the roof and all higher areas - "Structural Survey"

I've yet to see a "survey report" from the first two sorts of "survey" that doesn't say that, along with getting the electrics inspected, the heating system inspected, it's basically arse covering.

Either the buyers want the place or they don't. If they want it they'll make an offer, if that offer is acceptable to you accept it. If not reject it, if they want the place they might up their offer.

"Haggling" is the rule with property buying, not something we are culturally used to. BTW the last time I bought a place was way before HIP's, and energy ratings etc. So not sure what information the seller is expected to provide these days.

Reply to
Dave Liquorice

Are there obvious signs of damp? Mould, fungus, etc? Wallpaper falling off? Plaster crumbling? Recent re-decoration to cover things up?

If not, simply using a device to read moisture content in any one place is a good way of trying to get the price reduced. There's far more to interpreting a given moisture content than reading something off the scale of a meter that may not even be in calibration anyway - or even used correctly.

Reply to
Dave Plowman (News)

The moisture meter simply measures resistance. They were designed for wood, where resistance and moisture content are related and pretty stable within any particular species.

On walls you can make them prove anything you want. The recommended "damp proofing contractor" will of course find even more damp and offer to sell you a chemically injected damp proofing that will do nothing other than cost you a lot of money.

See

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If you have not noticed a damp problem and there is no visual sign of one in the area prodded then there isn't one.

Reply to
Peter Parry

I don't know how they work, but this isn't true - contact surface area of the pins doesn't change the reading (unless it's so light you haven't penetrated the material).

For remote reading an area of my loft which got damp once, I have put two quite substantial nails into a beam and connected them to a pair of wires with the ends in a wardrobe. The contact area of the nails will be hundreds of times better than the probes ever are, but the reading taken from the nail heads, and also remotely via the cable, are exactly the same as using the device's probe on the timber.

Reply to
Andrew Gabriel

The terms Valuation Survey, Home Buyers Report, and Structural Survey are often bandied about... in reality there is a tad more flexibility in the system if you are commissioning your own survey and want to customise things.

A valuation survey can be minimal (i.e. is the risk acceptable for the mortgage company), but you can also add extra instructions as to what you want checked.

The more detailed HBR is actually in some ways less flexible - since its very prescribed and has a set reporting form for which there is not much space for comment. So it suits very "normal" properties. Its supposed to give a buyer more detailed information and probably ought to spot serious issues, but based my experience I am not convinced.

The last category is really a fully negotiated product - i.e. no set pattern, but giving detailed instructions to investigate a particular area of interest.

With my last move I talked through the options with the surveyor, and he seemed to think that doing a simple valuation survey, but with added specific guidance from me for areas I was interested in, would be more useful. So I said I was interested in major structural faults, and serious building defects, did not want him to waste any time on plumbing or electrics, and the only damp I wanted to know about was "real, causing a problem" dampness and not the "you can detect it on a meter, but there is no other evidence damp".

Reply to
John Rumm

Andrew Gabriel expressed precisely :

For higher damp readings/ lower resistances the contact area will not be a factor. In less damp situations, the contact area does become a factor.

The work exactly the same as the resistance range on your multimeter, the only difference is how they are calibrated - in fact you could use a resistance meter instead.

All they do basically, is apply a voltage across the pins and display the amount of current which flows across the pins.

Reply to
Harry Bloomfield

Yes and no. See below.

No they're not. In Scotland, they are still required, and called variously Home Reports, or Scottish Single Surveys. I'm trying to buy at the moment, and find them EXTREMELY useful.

Obviously, properties are always photographed and described to look as good as possible. To know what's really going on, you have to know more than the Estate Agent's brochure tells you.

A good starting point is Google Maps, using Satellite View and Street View, although the former doesn't have good coverage in some remote areas, and the latter doesn't have complete coverage. Nevertheless, they will tell what sort of area the property is in, whether the property has residential or commercial neighbours that are too close for comfort, etc. They may also prompt further questions to ask the vendor or their agents. Example:

"I have found the property on Google Maps, and there appear to be substantial outhouses immediately to the West. Can you explain their current use, whether these are included in the property, and if not how 'busy' they are?"

Then or meanwhile, when I see a property in Scotland that I think might be the one, I ask the Estate Agent for the Home Report. I've been sent dozens of PDF Home Reports by email, but only actually viewed half-a-dozen or so of the actual properties. That is a HUGE saving in time and fuel. THAT's how useful they are!

The surveyor is required to tick a box if they have done any work within the previous two years for the Agents, for the vendor, or concerning the same property, thus giving a prospective purchaser some notion of how independent the result is likely to be.

Section 2 is about the condition of the property, ending in a summary table at the end. Repairs needed are ranked as follows:

Category 1 No immediate action or repair is needed.

Category 2 Repairs or replacement requiring future attention, obtaining estimates for which is advised.

Category 3 Urgent repairs or replacement are needed now. Failure to deal with them may cause problems to other parts of the property or cause a safety hazard.

So you start by skimming through the table balancing the likely costs of repairs against the price of the property. If all still looks good, you actually read the entire report, because Section 2 faults are often miscategorised, a 2 as a 1 or a 3 as a 2, and other points mentioned may well be relevant.

Here's an actual Section 2 summary: Structural movement 1 Dampness, rot and infestation 2 Chimney stacks 1 Roofing including roof space 2 Rainwater fittings 1 Main walls 1 Windows, external doors and joinery 1 External decorations 2 Conservatories/porches 1 Communal areas - Garages and permanent outbuildings - Outside areas and boundaries 1 Ceilings 1 Internal walls 1 Floors including sub-floors 1 Internal joinery and kitchen fittings 1 Chimney breasts and fireplaces 1 Internal decorations 1 Cellars - Electricity 1 Gas - Water, plumbing and bathroom fittings 1 Heating and hot water 1 Drainage 1

But in the actual description "Weather ingress was also noted within the attic.", so really that's a 3, not a 2!

Also, the Home Report gives you some idea of how long the house has been on the market, and therefore how desperate the vendor might be to sell, and therefore amenable to an offer under the actual asking price. IME, most properties are over-valued by 20-30k anyway.

In this case, to cover the above points I asked the agent ...

"The Home Report is dated 2009. Has the property been on the market all the time since?

The Home Report states that there is weather ingress to the attic (surely that should be a category 3 repair?), has this and any of the other points raised in it been ongoing since 2009, or has there been remedial work since?"

... and was told that the property had indeed been on the market since

2009 and was assured that repairs had already been carried out accordingly.

So I'm going to view it.

I wish we had implemented the same system throughout the UK when we had the chance. There are a number of properties in places like Wales and East Anglia that look good in the Agent's brochure, but I can't afford to go dashing around on such evidence alone. Once you understand it, the Scottish system is so much easier, particularly if you don't happen to live near the prospective purchase.

Reply to
Java Jive

Goolge maps and streetview ruled out a lot of properties for me in 2011, too. I didn't need a report from the agent to rule places out, just a little local knowledge.

Not really, no. If the situation there is anything like it is here, there are only a few surveyors in an area, and they work on properties from all the estate agents on a daily basis. I'd worry if the box hadn't been ticked, as it would probably mean that the surveyor was either so lax he missed stuff, or so severe that he condemned properties unnecessarily. In either case, he would look independent by your reasoning, but could be so desperate for work he would within limits say whatever his client wanted.

I do my own full survey anyway, as I've been trained in building construction and repairs and know what to look for. I've visited a few properties and immediately walked away as soon as I've opened the front door, due to the smell of wet or dry rot somewhere in the building. Or not even bothered going in when I saw the state of the brickwork or roof.

This is nothing like the HIP. The HIP contained no details of repairs needed or anything other than vague statements like "The house is in the condition expected of property of this age." It also contains information on things like planning matters which the finance company will insist that your solicitor must check again anyway as part of their routine.

Not round here, they're not. Then again, the average price round here is about £135k, but they are normally priced at about 10% more than the last one in the street sold for. You can buy a terrace in some areas within a ten minute drive of here for between £30k and £40k, and move in tomorrow, if you don't mind doing work while you live there. £20k of work will make it worth about £60k and sell for £55k

If you liked it, would you have viewed it anyway? And was it priced to take the report's recommendations into account?

If I'm looking to move to an area I don't know, I spend at least a week there in a B&B, just mooching round. It's worth it, as you get to know what's available and where, and what to look for. This has stopped me moving to a couple of areas in the past at a reasonable cost. For instance, in certain parts of the country, there are a lot of badly drawn up titles, where some property, which was originally all under one title, has been split between members of the same family after a death, and they just assume that there will always be a family agreement to look after the area as a whole. One that I remember had no agreement as to who was responsible for maintaining the retaining wall which stopped the property at the top of the hill falling into the back yard of the property I wanted to buy. This property also had a flying freehold above another property that had so much rot in it that the spores were thickly layered on all the timber that was visible including the floors.

Reply to
John Williamson

ve read elsewhere (in this ng,

Damp meters just measure conductivity. So if a wall has damp/water in it. it will be conductive. The problem is that the water may have dissolved salts in it, the amount of salts effects the reading.

So the damp meter just gives an indication, it is not rocket science exact.

But any the provider of any report puts on the report what whoever is paying wants to see. So they are worthless anyway. The only way to be sure is to do your own checking.

And mortgage company survey are bollocks too. All they want to know is if the property is worth enough to cover them if you default. Nothing to do with building condition and little to do with market values.

Reply to
harry

But my whole point is that I'm interested in buying precisely in areas where I don't have local knowledge.

I'm not claiming it's foolproof, but perhaps it's significant that the one Home Report / Scottish Single Survey I have found to be significantly too generous to the property was also one of the few that had that box ticked.

But most of us have not, although my ex-wife and I did supervise the replacement of a cottage we owned.

Yes, I've had two of those. One was unexpected, but the other was no surprise - I knew it was likely to be in poor condition, but I was seeing another a couple of miles away anyway.

I would say that Section 2 of a HR/SSS is probably the single most useful part of the report.

Fine, that would be good to include in the HR/SSS too. I walked away from a purchase on completion day, because it was only then that I was informed that the property was surrounded by land earmarked for development. If I'd known that before I began, I'd've not got involved and saved a lot of money.

10% of 135k is 13.5k, so it would seem to happening round your area as well.

I wouldn't be bothering if I thought the house has been open to the weather since 2009! It is priced below the stated value, which takes into account the HR/SSS anyway, but the market has been falling ever since anyway, so I think it's still a little too expensive, but worth a look, and if appropriate, worth trying an offer below the asking price.

All over the country, there are post-war bungalows thrown up in a hurry, many of which were built from pre-fab concrete panels, and these cannot normally now be used as surety for a mortgage. Even though I don't need a mortgage, I've rejected plenty of those, too. Again, this is another thing that has to be mentioned in the HR/SSS.

I've discovered a few things like that.

Anywhere within biker distance of Head Of The Valleys Road is out, unless you are a biker yourself, or don't mind the row. They're out every weekend around there and travel all over South Wales. I was pulled up in a very quiet, remote lane deep in mid-south Wales because I'd seen a For Sale sign, and was chatting to the owner. In the middle of our conversation we had to stop talking while a motor-bike came past making an appalling row. Every time I've been there during the weekend, I've seen gangs of them riding about, or parked up in a lay-by or cafe.

Round here, it's chavs with cars modded to have unnecessarily noisy exhausts. Needless to say, the cars don't travel any faster, have more acceleration, or anything that might remotely be an excuse, they just make many times more noise than a normal car.

Reply to
Java Jive

Or is from outside the area and doesn't understand local building methods. That caused us a lot of grief when Lloyds bought C&G some years ago and started using their own surveyors. Our prospective vendor was then turned down for a mortgage due to the new surveyor not really understanding the issues with steel framed houses.

MBQ

Reply to
Man at B&Q

Thanks for the input everyone. The survey was done for the bank re. the mortgage offer. I'm going to buy a damp meter from Toolstation (approx £10) to see what gives but, as stated, we know nothing of any damp, although with the cold weather, and the house unheated for much of daytime hours, condensation might be a factor.

Reply to
Apellation Controlee

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