Building a wall on a patio

This is almost certainly one of those questions where the answer depends on details I can't yet provide, but anyway...
I want to lay a patio some eight feet deep using (or rather re-using) 400 x 400 x 28mm slabs. At a later date, I want to erect a two-foot high wall, probably of single-skin brick, along part of the long edge of the patio.
How feasible would it be to build the wall actually onto the patio itself? That's to say not digging out and laying any separate foundation?
Many thanks.
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After serious thinking Bert Coules wrote :

It wouldn't, it would need a foundation of some sort or the weight would cause it to sink.
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Harry (M1BYT) (L)
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On 13/05/2014 17:49, Harry Bloomfield wrote:

Of course that could be under the offending slabs.
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Thanks for the replies, and for confirming my suspicions. So the sensible thing to do would be to lay the foundation for the wall at the same time as creating the patio, even though the wall would be a later addition)?
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Yes. And the single skin wall might need supports at the ends.
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Adam


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"ARW" wrote:

I was assuming so, and perhaps elsewhere along its length as well.
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On 13/05/14 18:11, Bert Coules wrote:

yes. OR use stuff like rebar IN the wall. Remember a atrip foundation is simply to stop local stresses cracking the wall or it rising or sinking.
If all you care about is not cracking, reinforce the wall with steel.
If you do a simple stretcher bond double wall capped wit a soldier course there's room to use steel between the courses and in vertical and horizontal directions, and some ties will hold the courses together as well.
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On Tuesday, May 13, 2014 7:16:01 PM UTC+1, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Steel in a wall introduces a likely failure mode. Rope in each course is good enough if you wanted some reinforcement. With a 2' high wall I certainly wouldnt use this as an excuse to skimp on the footings - thats only practical for tiny walls.
NT
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On 13/05/14 22:29, snipped-for-privacy@care2.com wrote:

I think you had better tell that to the shard and onion people
They will be very interested to know that.
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On Wednesday, May 14, 2014 4:46:38 AM UTC+1, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

I was of course referring to rebar in a domestic diyed 4" brick wall, a very different proposition to the design of the onion & shard.
NT
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On 13/05/2014 18:11, Bert Coules wrote:

Yup. You won't need a huge foundation for a 2' wall. If you know where its going to be when doing the patio, stick in a 8" - 12" deep concrete haunch along that side, and bed those slabs on mortar even if the rest are laid on dry mix or just sharp sand.
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On 13/05/14 18:07, Fredxxx wrote:

I'd go down about a foot, build the wall with metal ties to make sure it didnt split and then lay the slabs later.
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The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Thanks. It's sound advice but unfortunately, for reasons far too boring to go into, the patio has to come first.
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On 13/05/2014 19:16, Bert Coules wrote:

However as has been said, you can still stick the required footing under the patio.
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John Rumm wrote:

Belated thanks for that: it is clearly the sensible approach.
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On 13/05/2014 17:09, Bert Coules wrote:

I've just done a similar (8ft x 8ft) thing, but I thought the bricks would have looked odd stuck on the slabs. No big deal to dig out a small trench alongside the patio. I had a bit of hardcore to get rid of anyway.
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Stuart Noble wrote:

That does seem to be the way to go, so thanks for the confirmation. Did you extend the trench actually under the patio's edge, so as to have a foundation wide than the wall?
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On 13/05/2014 19:01, Bert Coules wrote:

No. I regarded the patio base as sufficient on that side, and there's probably a brick width on the other side. What the hell, it's only a small retaining wall, and I'd rather grow things than fill the space with footings. If it fails, I'll stick it all back together :-)
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Thanks to everyone for the new replies and the advice, pro and con.
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Zero feasibility.
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