Builders banana wall - OK or not?

[RzB]

I have had a builder move a door opening. See picture 01 on...

Unfortunately the wall is a little wonky. Pic 02 shows how the wall bends. The max gap of this bend is half an inch. This picture was taken with a 2M level resting on the lintel at the top, and the 2nd row of blocks up at the bottom. Picture 03 show how far out of plumb the wall is.

The first three rows of bricks are at least flat to each other if not quite plumb. Placing the level flat on these first 3 rows shows how much the thing bends... Over an inch by the time it reaches the lintel. See photo 04.

I haven't spoken to the boss man yet.. When I discussed it with the "foreman" he said - no problem - will all disappear when it gets plastered. Is that reasonable? Is the plasterer going to agree with that?

Would appreciate comments.

Thanks, Roy

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Assuming it can be made good - and square - to the existing wall, yes.

Hopefully the boss man will be supplying the plasterer, so it's his problem. If you're doing the subbing yourself it might cost more than it should.

[.]

knock it down and get the builder to re do it properly. it's wayyyyy out of line. it will cost no more than a bricky for a half day - £70 to £100 and if he can't find a bricky or refuses to pay for it get your own in and knock it off the bill.

all you want is for the job to be as good as the money you're going to pay. unless the rules have changed, walls should be built straight and plumb.

p.s. I'd like to see you get a door casing on, striaght, on pic 4 LOL ;-)

[Hugo Nebula]

On Sat, 22 Jul 2006 09:51:46 +0100, a particular chimpanzee named "RzB" randomly hit the keyboard and produced:

A wall that leans by more than a third of its thickness has its centre of gravity outside the base of the wall, and is therefore inherently unstable (aka, 'the middle third' rule). From my structures lectures many, many years ago, I seem to recall that any load applied more than one sixth of the wall's thickness away from the centre is classed as 'eccentrically loaded' and the ability of the wall to resist turning moments needs to be calculated.

How have they managed to get it out of plumb anyway? They're building off the existing foundation at the base, it looks like they're building up to an existing wall line at the top, and they're tying in to an existing wall at the side. Either the rest of the house is out of plumb to begin with or they've managed a major breakthrough in topographical mathematics. Any chance of posting a photo of the head of this wall?

Get the Building Control Surveyor to take a look before it's plastered, preferably with both you and the builder there.

PS. I'd question the lintel as well. It looks to be a 65mm high pre-stressed one. These need the composite action of at least three courses of block or bricks above before any substantial point load is placed over. A 100mm x 150mm pre-cast would be better.

PPS. Why have they used Celcon Solar blocks when ordinary dense or mediumweight blocks would have been cheaper and better?

[The Medway Handyman]

Not if its plastered by the bloke who built it.................

Or was the bloke who built it 'plastered' at the time?

[RzB]

Gents, Many thanks for your responses. I'm loath to put anymore work with them, so will be looking elsewhere for a plasterer I think.

It may well be that the "boss" will just say - not good enough and will do it again! We shall see... I'll let you know.

He is only contracted to do the brickwork and fit a liner. It will be interesting to see how he manages that :-)

I wish I had done it all myself now! My wife talked me out of it because I would have taken longer! Hmmm...

Roy

[Phil L]

Unfortunately, this is how the wall will have to stay. If he'd been building an independant wall, not adjoining other existing walls, it would probably have been straight and plumb, in this case however, he had to build it so that it attatched to the existing walls, which are also probably a mile out...that is to say, if he'd built it perfectly straight, there would have been an inch step out to the existing brickwork.

HTH

[RzB]

No I don't think so... I have put a line against the wall from end to end. At the top it all lines up perfectly. At the bottom the new rows drift away the line.. I think the guy realised this after 3 courses and then just bent the following courses back to meet up with the lintel.

Thanks for your resonse.. Roy

[Mark]

Is this bowed along the complete length of the wall or only at the end underneath the dubiously sized lintel.

If so you can probably guess why.

-

[MikeH]

"... I wish I had done it all myself now! My wife talked me out of it because I would have taken longer! Hmmm... "

Oh how I can sympathise with that! I'm into the 13th week of a 4-6 week project. I know that I could have done a better job than the builder and I would have saved myself lots of cash and aggravation. I might have even got it finished earlier than the builder is going to achieve.

Never again. If there's a next time, I'll be doing it myself and refusing to listen to voices about it taking me too long!

Mike

[Weatherlawyer]

I would have said from the last pic that the wall looked to be in keeping with the other walls. If you are adamant that it is not then have the wall knocked down and either tell the brickie to shove off or get it right. It doesn't look too difficult a job which may be why the boss let a crap brickie loose on it.

You could'nt do much worse yourself could you and have had the conntentment of having done it yourself.

What newsreader are you using the lines in your post are very short.

[Guy King]

The message from "MikeH" contains these words:

I promised the wife the conservatory would be finished in time for her birthday - which is next week.

Fortunately I never specified which birthday. I've now been cornered and agreed to get it done before she's 40.

[RzB]

== snip

Yes - I'm sure. I'm also absolutly certain that I could have done better myself. I did a bricklaying evening class a few years ago and have constructed a couple of more difficult walls than this one. Plumb and straight. Just not the worlds fastest at it :-)

Apols about the line length - I'm using Outlook Express - what line length would you recommend? I tend to use quite a short length to stop wrapping as the >>>>>>s build up.

Thanks, Roy

[Lobster]

Pah - that's nothing, I'm in the fifth year of an 8-week project.... Oh.... you mean you have a tradesman in the 13th week of a 4-6 week project. Ahem.

David

[legin]

Unfortunately this looks like a no win situation. You have not shown the level against the existing brick wall so we do not know what the bricky was up against. It certainely looks as if the existing wall was out of plumb and he has had to follow suit. Had he built it perfectly plumb and it missed the top wall you would have been slating him for not following suit. the bricky has followed the existing wall and now it is not plumb. Okay granted there is a bend in the wall but it could be overcome by the plasterer. Again we don't know if the bricky strung it through side to side and the wall is merely following what exists. If the wall is not load bearing and the concrete lintel is spanning the opening then it would not concern me that it is only supporting one or two rows of thermalite blocks, there is very little weight there. Overall it seems that the bricky has done a fair job with what he had to contend with, perhaps could have done better with regards the bend. Please try and be fair with him. I am not suggesting that you are, but it is horrible when a customer starts picking fault with the work to avoid paying or achieve discounts.

Legin

[RzB]

Legin, No no - it's not like that at all... I hate conflict and I couldn't agree more about "picking fault just to haggle on price". Not my style at all and not the case here at all. I already slipped the brickie a tenner at the end of a very hot day for a beer as a thank you for the effort. He worked very hard - there was a fair bit of demolition to be done. That was before I noticed the problem.

It's quiet difficult to explain what has happened here but I'm totally convinced this wall could be plumb/straight. The brickie has gone off line with the bottom courses as it approaches the new opening. Then he has attempted to pull it back with upper courses to tie into the lintel. If you understand what I mean.

I think it's going to be very difficult to fit a lining properly. This needs to be plumb/square as I have to install double doors in this gap.

I am waiting for plasterers to come and give me quotes in the next few days. It will be interesting to see if they feel they can "make it right". If they can then no problem.. However I have my doubts.

Also I agree about the size of the lintel - there is very little weight on it. My main concern is the hanging of the doors and the plastering.

I'm hoping the boss man will come in and see that it's not quite right. If he doesn't, then my guess is that I will pay up, put it down to experience, knock it down and redo it myself :-) Ho hum...

Many thanks for your response.

Roy

[RzB]

Legin,

Apols for the duff line lengths - having a bit of a problem with that today..

Also - thanks for your post - It made me go back and check everything.... It really is quite a complex problem, although you wouldn't think so from first appearances.

Anyway - it will be interesting to see what the boss man will say - currently he is imobile with a back injury (not nice) - so it will have to wait for a bit.

Thanks for your help. Roy

[.]

get some acro's on monday, take the wall down, replace the lintel, rebuild the wall with the correct blocks only vertical this time, with no curves, as it ought to be.

knock the materials and your labour costs off the 'builders' bill + 10% for being cheeky.

you have photographic evidence of the wall, the builder doesn't.

[legin]

My apologies then for even thinking that you may have been trying to avoid paying.

Has he started building it plumb and then had to bend it in to the existing?

Door linings come 5 and a quater inch wide. Block = 4 inch. You have 1 quater to play with. Okay the plaster may be a bit thinner one side in the middle and a bit fatter the other side but more than do able. As I have said the bend could have been better but given that I have not seen the existing walls then it is difficult to comment further. Your pic 1 shows that the block work is in line with the existing wall so may be that it bellied as well? Don't get me wrong here there are definately some botch it merchants out there and half an inch is pushing the limits but you would expect the blockwork to be within a quater here and there. I don't mean to sound rough but I have worked for engineers who expect you to work to the nearest thou. Knowing that you are going to plaster the blockwork you don't have to be so precise.

I think that you will find that this is unnecessary. Filling the hollow with extra plaster, no problem. If the blockwork is protruding too much the other side then a duff saw will soon cut it back. At most it is only half inch. Given earlier comments on door linings you can get round this. Your next problem however is if the carpenter fits the door frame to the opening it may be off plumb. However again he can only go with what is there.

Good luck and I do hope all goes well.

Legin

[legin]

Great advice. The wall will be level at the bottom but will jut out half/ three quaters of an inch at the top and sides, where it fails to meet the existing walls. I have worked on old houses where they have been 1 and half inches out floor to ceiling. Stood for three hundred years as well although hopefully plumb when first built!

being cheeky.

Point out your concerns and hopefully reach agreement. If the builder is confident that the finished job will be alright then make it a condition that you will only pay if it looks okay when finished. Perhaps consider a different builder next time.

The evidence shows a new wall tied into an existing wall. The new wall is out of plumb, so the old wall must be out of plumb. There is a bend in the new wall, but we dont see the level against the existing wall so it is dificult to comment further. I think enough doubt exists for any judge to question what may or not have happened. The builder is confident that the plastering will finish the job okay, why not give him the chance.

Legin