Balancing hot water/central heating (to activate radiators)

Dec 14, 2024 Last reply: 1 year ago 29 Replies

The programmer is probably ok if all you want to do is solve the immediate problem. The simplest fix is to just set it to not demand CH and DHW at the same time.

However it would be worth finding out why the DHW zone valve is not closing when the cylinder is up to temp. This could be as simple as the cylinder stat is set higher than the flow temp on the boiler, so the cylinder will never get hot enough to cause its stat to stop calling for heat. Alternatively there could be a wiring fault. Assuming your wiring is similar to :

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then the HW output from the programmer goes to the valve via the cylinder stat, and the call for heat comes back from the valves to the boiler. (in that diagram they are in effect logically "OR" ed together - either valve being open will call for heat from the boiler). Following the wires through and testing with a multimeter, should be easy enough. With DHW "on" at the programmer you should be able to cause the live to the valve to go on and off in response to twiddling the cylinder stat.

Split temp is also easy with your boiler as it has separate water temp controls for CH and DHW, and also separate inputs to allow you to trigger it for CH or DHW. Hence it "knows" what it is heating, and and can run the required temperature. So the only change required would be separating those call for heat signals derived from the zone valves and bringing them to the boiler separately rather than combining them into one generic call for heat.

To go full weather compensation then you would probably want one for the Vaillant weather compensating controls like the VRC 700 or VR 470, and a wiring centre like the VR66 or 71. That then makes the communication between the boiler and the stat and the wiring centre an ebus connection

- so it can now pass detailed info back and fourth (and the "stat" becomes a much more accessible place to configure and access the boilers many options).

The stat also replaces the timer/programmer,

You also have an external stat (just a NTC thermocouple in a box) that is wired back to the boiler. The weather compensator can read the external temp from the boiler, it also knows what the set point temp is as well as the actual temp, and can then decide what flow temp is required. Once it knows all this it can command the boiler to fire and run at an appropriate temperature.

It appears to have two separate sets of SPST relay contacts on the output, so can cope with fully independent control - however it will depend on how they have been wired.

They are "volt free" contacts, so you need loop backs from the live feed to create control signals that will be understood by traditional valves.

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Note also I think some people are confused by the comment in the manual to the effect:

"If used to provide time control for gravity hot water/pumped heating System, it is not possible to select Heating only without Hot Water. For these installations a Heating & Hot Water sticker is supplied which should be placed over the existing HEATING caption."

his only applies to systems with gravity (aka thermosyphon) hot water circuits. With S plan this is not the case.

A lot of programmers have a jumper to allow it to either switch hot water and heating separately or always put hot water on with heating, worth checking the manual

The OPs programmer can do that - but it is just down to how you wire the relay outputs.

It says the programmer can't switch the CH and HW at different times, this isn't down to the wiring, it is when the programmer fires the relays, that was my point, you can often set a jumper such that if you only ask for heating it may or may not also fire the hot water relay. Regards

No it doesn't - I posted a link to one of the manuals earlier, however ere is another with more detail of operation:

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Some selected highlights for you :

"ST699 INCORPORATES THE FOLLOWING FEATURES: 24-hour programme Independent Heating and Hot Water control"

"The unit has two ON/OFF programme times per day to control your Heating and Hot Water system. To help you set your personal programme quickly, a built-in programme has been incorporated with commonly used programme times. This programme is selected automatically when the unit is first connected to the mains power or when the RESET button is pressed. Each programme time can be set between 3.00am and 2.50am (on the next day) to allow you to programme past midnight, if required."

And in particular:

"IMPORTANT NOTICE When using ST699/ST799 on gravity hot water/pumped heating systems, a HEATING & HOT WATER sticker (supplied) should be placed over the existing HEATING caption (as illustrated below)."

In other words, combined heating and DHW only applies on systems with gravity hot water, not fully pumped systems.

I think you have a misunderstanding of how and why the interaction between heating and DHW can come about on some partially pumped systems.

If used on a fully pumped system, then there is independent control of the primary flow from the boiler through the rads and the cylinder. You can have one or the other or possibly both. This flow is controlled by one or more zone valves.

With some partially pumped systems that only have gravity circulation through the cylinder, initially there were no valves at all. Just a pump for circulating water through the rads. So when the boiler fires, the cylinder is heated - all the time, whether it needs to be or not. If you also want heating, the the boiler fires *and* the pump is also run.

In that situation you have two calls for heat - one to fire the boiler and one to run the pump. However they are not fully independent since whichever causes the boiler to light will get a DHW reheat.

When you use a two channel programmer like the ST699 on these systems, even though its CH and DHW outputs are fully independent and separately timed, the system itself can't actually heat the rads in isolation. That is not down to a limitation of the programmer (but they do supply a sticker to apply to the face of it to make this more clear!)

Isn't that the programmer the OP is thinking of getting rather than the one he has.

I think we are at cross purposes, my system at home it is a Y plan, but doesn't use the CH off terminal so when just HW is selected the 3 port valve is driven all the way over to divert all flow to the HW tank coil.

When CH is selected the HW output is also energised to 'liven up' the valve and the CH on contact will drive the valve to center position. When the thermostat on the tank is satisfied the valve will divert fully to CH.

On all the timers I have fit to this system there is a jumper to enable either completely separate outputs for CH or HW or it can be set to fire the HW relay when only CH is selected.

In any case it looks like the ST699 doesn't have this.

No offense intended, it's good to talk!

Best regards

I got the impression that was what he currently has from:

For the avoidance of confusion, I was specifically referring to the OPs system with the ST699...

Indeed some may have a specific jumper, but that particular programmer doesn't need a jumper - since it has two timers that control two SPDT relays. How they are used is just down to the wiring basically. (gravity circulation DHW systems excepted). That means if you want to activate DHW with priority every time there is a call for heat (regardless of whether that is a CH call or a DHW one, then you can but you don't have to.

It's ok none taken :-)

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