Another bathroom bonding question



Lead free just as easy to use as lead. I use lead-free on all hot and cold water pipework. I use lead on central heating and gas pipework.
Clean to bright copper (pipes and inside fittings), flux, and enough heat quickly so you can solder before all the flux is lost are the key things. Don't use so much solder it drips off - you could end up with a similar amount running inside the pipe. Check all around the join that a ring of solder is visible - a small inspection mirror and damp cloth for cleaning off the flux afterwards are very handy.
If you clean up the pipes/fittings with steel wool (which is what I normally do), make sure there are no strands left in the pipe and fittings before fluxing up.

It is good, and can make very neat pipework. When you can get a double bend offset right, you've made it.
Keep the bending formers clean to avoid any grit getting stuck and forced into the pipe. Don't let them rattle around with hard metal tools which can easily ding them.
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Andrew Gabriel
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On 29/04/2017 14:37, Andrew Gabriel wrote:

Thanks, saved for later.

Like this? (youtube video of some bloke making a good job of making an offset bend):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XD41H8Tz61E

I do like the idea - but would need quite an investment and space, getting a bending machine?
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I use those cleaning strips these days. Bit more expensive than wire wool but less hassle.
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Dave Plowman snipped-for-privacy@davenoise.co.uk London SW
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On 29/04/2017 11:09, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Bending steel conduit neatly is more fun.
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Adam

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Yup. And harder work. ;-)
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Dave Plowman snipped-for-privacy@davenoise.co.uk London SW
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Much easier for amateurs to use. ;-)
But never looks as good as copper installed by a craftsman.
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Dave Plowman snipped-for-privacy@davenoise.co.uk London SW
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On 28/04/2017 09:17, RJH wrote:

You could, although abandoned wires are better disconnected at the other end if that's easy. When forced to abandon a cable / wire its generally best to leave the exposed ends terminated in some way so that they can't come into contact with anything (i.e. into a chock box or similar)

There is no requirement (and no point) in bonding bits of isolated metalwork.
The question you need ask yourself each time, is "can this bit of metal introduce a voltage into this room?" (even where that voltage is 0V or earth potential). If the answer is no (e.g. because its not connected to anything conductive that leaves the room), then its a waste of time bonding it. Likewise there is no point in bonding things that already have their path of conduction bonded - so a metal bath where the incoming pipes connected to it are already bonded etc.
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On 28/04/2017 11:15, John Rumm wrote:

You can't rely on bath taps making a good electrical connection to a bath. Enamel doesn't conduct and the plastic washers you use don't conduct. Unless someone has welded a stud on its going to be very hard to make a reliable connection that will last years.
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On 28/04/2017 11:53, dennis@home wrote:

You only need to bond “a conductive part liable to introduce a potential, generally Earth potential". So ISTM:
a.    if the bath makes a conductive connection with pipes etc then bonding the pipes etc bonds the bath.
b.    if the bath does not make a conductive connection with pipes etc then it can't introduce a potential so there's no need to bond it.
I don't see a middle way.
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On 28/04/2017 12:22, Robin wrote:

And if both the hot and cold pipes are bonded then it matters even less as they are the only thing that could introduce a potential (excluding throwing a hair drier or similar into the bath) and a metal waste pipe.
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On 28/04/2017 18:41, ARW wrote:

My bath has an earthing stud and there is a 4 mm earth bonding going down through the plaster and into the cooker socket where it joins up with the cpc of the 6mm cooker cable. That's what the original builders did.
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Andrew wrote:

That's worse than nothing. It doesn't bond the bath to the other sources of potential (pipes, lighting circuit etc), and introduces a potential from the cooker circuit that wouldn't otherwise be there.
Mike
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On 30/04/2017 16:09, Mike Humphrey wrote:

It'll be handy if you want to move the cooker into the bathroom!
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On 28/04/2017 11:53, dennis@home wrote:

Can the bath in isolation bring a potential into the room? So long as the pipes entering the room are bonded, then we don't actually care if the bath is connected to them or floating (electrically!)
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On 29/04/17 00:25, John Rumm wrote:

I'm actually grateful for the more lax regulation of the 17th. It allows a bit more site related judgement than is possible with prescriptive rules.
My pipes, being chromed and mostly on show would be tricky to bond by the book. Under the bath - OK. However, I'd have to get a wire over to the shaver socket and then onto the bog cistern the other side of the room to do it by the 16th.
In reality, my floor is mostly insulated (tiles on marmox foam panels). The shaver socket is 1m from the bath and the 2 screws are well recessed and hard to touch.
The bog cistern pipe is hard to reach even standing next to it, let alone from the bath (impossible).
The bath is plastic and has a plastic waste.
So all in, if the hot and cold pipes are strapped *somewhere* vaguely nearby (they are, under the stairs) it's almost impossible to set up a situation that would be a material risk.
My shower room that we are about to screed is different - got concrete floor, metal pipes to the shower and you could handle the shaver socket dripping wet (it's a wet room). So I will probably shove SB in there as there's definate merit in doing so. It might not be 100% by the 16th - the clamps will be in the adjacent hall cupboard rather than in the room itself - but the 17th gives me some design freedom. The end effect will be as good as 16th SB in any practical way it could be judged.
I'm a little wary of trying to over prescribe solutions. On one hand, legislating for the worst case/dumbest installer avoids things going wrong with people who don't like to think things through.
OTOH it tends to become a war of rules, rather than the installer understanding what he is actually trying to achieve and applying a perfectly reasonable solution. cf the bonding of every bit of metal in sight when the whole idea was first introduced. Why? Because installers did not actually understand what they were trying to achieve. They saw the "bond metalwork" and blindly applied it to everything.
In theory one can design outside of the regs and mark it as a departure, but it takes a brave man in this rules based world to put his name to it.
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On 29/04/2017 00:25, John Rumm wrote:

The two/four taps + shower mixer will be separate paths so it really depends on what the bath is fixed too. It may be screwed to wall or floor so best look what's there before you decide if it can accidentally become live. Some houses use metal rather than 4x2 wood for walls so it is possible to screw a metal bath to something that can become live even though its unlikely.
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On 29/04/2017 12:32, dennis@home wrote:

Its the same basic question though - ignoring the pipework, can the bath itself introduce a potential. In the vast majority of cases the answer will be no. However there may be (rare) installation specific cases where there the answer is yes.

This may be a case where the answer is "yes" (although SB of the studwork might be a better solution)
Note that the third amendment of the 17th edition required that any cables installed in walls using metal studwork, must now have 30mA RCD protection regardless of their burial depth.
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On 29/04/2017 13:31, John Rumm wrote:

Fitting a new bath doesn't require you to bring the electrics up to standard.
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On 28/04/2017 11:15, John Rumm wrote:

That's excellent, thanks very much.
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I initially red the sub line as Another Bathroom bondage question. Where has my mind been I wonder. Wanders off muttering. Brian
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