Advice on which electric scale inhibitor to use.

[Andy Hall]

That's the whole trouble. The manufacturers assert and have no proof.

[Andy Hall]

[Sponix]

They *possibly* work. Limited research has been done and they work in some circumstances although no-one is quite sure why.

sponix

[Doctor Drivel]

Matt, the Germans and Americans think otherwise. And you said this sort of thing could never work. I have seen large electronic descalers working hospitals...20 years ago. Many people in housing I have come across fit, hospitals fit them. And mine works. But Matt/Lord Hall, without ever seeing one, says they don't work.

[Doctor Drivel]

Matt, I know. Isn't your softener an Aqua-Dial too?

[Andy Hall]

I would hope it would be. The technology is nothing like the toy that you have under your sink and prices in the U.S. range from $1200 for the smallest one suitable for a small house. The average sized one costs $3000 and the largest $8000.

Even then, the vendors do not claim that it softens water or is suitable for hard water areas and point out that the only proven solution is an ion exchange softener.

Well no shit, Sherlock. Why on earth would anybody except an idiot buy something that costs ten times the price of something that is known to work and still doesn't do the job ?

[Sponix]

Wrong!

All a softener does is increase the amount of bubbles produced. It does NOT increase the effectiveness of the detergent which is the same whether used with hard or soft water and independant of the bubbles produced.

People wrongly associate bubbles with effective cleaning.

sponix

[Doctor Drivel]

Matt, but you said they don't work at all.

It is. It is electronic and all that.

[Guy King]

The message from "Doctor Drivel" contains these words:

I reckon "At the present time no device can be guaranteed to work to produce an acceptable benefit, except in very specific circumstances." is close enough to useless for most purposes.

[Andy Hall]

We aren't talking about industrial scale installations

I'm pleased for you.

[Guy King]

The message from "Doctor Drivel" contains these words:

And they also made it very clear that it's not of the sort that we're talking about.

"The device that has passed is the AQAtotal, which is new and is marketed in the UK by Kennicot (tel: [phone]). This is similar in size to a salt-regenerated softener and is likely to be as expensive to install, but with a lower operating cost, being mainly the replacement of a cartridge every couple of years."

see, nothing like the things we're talking about.

If you'd like to talk about water softeners and the like, fine, but don't conflate the two. The article, and most people here, seem quite capable of understanding the distinction.

[Andy Hall]

Nope. Kinetico. I've had it for 20 yrs. It works perfectly, predictably and using well understood and repeatable methods to do so.

[Andy Hall]

I said that the £30 - 90 toys don't work.

So's my watch, but that doesn't do anything useful to water either.

[Doctor Drivel]

Neither am I, and mine works.

Thank you Matt.

[Doctor Drivel]

Matt, but why does mine work then?

Matt, you watch wasn't designed to do things with water. Have you noticed that?

[Doctor Drivel]

Lord Hall/Matt said only salt ones work. he is incorrect then.

[Doctor Drivel]

They did say, try one and see. I did and it worked.

[Guy King]

The message from "Doctor Drivel" contains these words:

I think we're talking at cross-purposes here.

I thought this discussion was about the things that wrap a wire around a pipe and claim to cure all known ills without a plib[1].

If we're talking about water softeners, that's a different thing and yes, of course they work and I don't think anyone's denying that.

The things we're all saying are snake oil are things like this...

for which the evidence is /very/ thin - to the point of stretching credulity.

[1] With apologies to E.L.Whisty.

[Stuart Noble]

It's pretty clear that the principle works. Question is whether the volume of water delivered at domestic mains pressure would be affected at all by such a small unit. I was told years ago by an expert in the field that a unit to handle this would be the size of a kitchen base unit. In any case the water apparently reverts to its former state quite quickly so, although it's useful for protecting a specific piece of equipment, it seems it will do nothing to stop scale on tiles, WCs etc

[Andy Hall]

Right.

Wrong.

I am quite aware of the bubbles issue and its irrelevance to effectiveness. However, I can observe a pretty clear difference in outcome from the use of softened water in terms of cleaning effectiveness and of rinsing effectiveness and eventual softness of the finished laundry.