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Don't know where this orphan thread came from but...

I have to say I'm with Bob on this. If you think about it, the majority of people who are licensed to drive vehicles will eventually die of old age, and of those, the majority will have given up driving at some point beforehand due to infirmity or otherwise being incapable. And basically, the way system works in this country, an individual has to recognise that they are no longer up to driving and voluntarily surrender their license - which is a huge deal for most people since it means acknowledging that they are basically clapped out, and are losing a fundamental part of their independence.

The reality is that individuals are slow to appreciate the decline of their own faculties - others notice it far earlier. That means that for the period leading up to the point they finally surrender their licence, individuals are very likely to be 'well below par' in the ways Bob says.

Examples from my own experience? I can recall several instances of being driven by elderly people who were beyond their driving years - mother-in-law carving up a bicycle at a roundabout - God knows how she missed him; totally unaware until I pointed it out. Then there was my aunt, who I'm told only finally gave up driving after one incident when she'd driven down her local village high street a little too close to the row of parked cars, and managed to take out about half a dozen wing mirrors: the first she knew of it was when the steady stream of knocking started on her front door. And Granny-in-law, who apparently managed to circumnavigate a roundabout the wrong way before being pulled by a police car...

David

Another sideways insult.

What do you want, photographs? Sorry, I usually see these when I'm driving.

Last week I was waiting to enter our road from a side turning. There is a road opposite (it's almost a crossroads, but the other road is angled).

An elderly driver was in his car, in the opposite road. A car was approaching on the main road from one side, and a van was approaching from the other (on the side of the main road nearest said elderly driver). Naturally I was waiting for both vehicles on the main road to pass before even thinking of pulling out.

Neither vehicle on the main road was travelling fast. When the van was within a few metres of the junction, I saw the elderly driver look towards the van, and immediately pull out in front of it. He had either (a) misjudged its speed *very* badly (b) decided he had right of way (he didn't, due to the nature of the junction or (c) not seen the van at all. I would suspect (c). The van braked very hard and stopped *just* in time; he couldn't swerve because of the car coming the other way. If he had swerved, the car would have hit mine (still in the mouth of the turning).

I emphasise that neither of the other moving vehicles was travelling at an unreasonable speed; they were enitled to believe that, given no visual obstacles, neither I nor the elderly driver would pull out in front of them.

When all had screeched to a standstill, the elderly driver raised his hand in in thanks to the van driver for 'stopping', and toddled off up the road at about 10 mph. Oblivious.

That's just the most recent incident.

If you're so paranoid that you're determined to see insults where they're not meant there's no point in my wasting energy.

My wife just reminded me of another, a few weeks ago. Again, a road junction. Bus approaching up main road, not moving fast as it was pulling away from a bus stop. Elderly driver came out of side junction and collided with bus.

He was still maintaining that the bus driver was at fault. And there was his car - embedded in the *side* of the bus, almost exactly halfway down its length. Yes, he pulled out of the junction and failed to notice a double decker bus!

Or you didn't want to read/acknowledge the account of a real near-accident.

After a few decades of scaring my parents when I drove them anywhere, my Dad's driving now scares me. He drives slower than I cycle and his reaction times and general observation are at a level that wouldn't get you through a driving test. That's for someone who spent his whole working life as a driver and has an excellent safety record so far.

My mother ran into the back of a trailer, in broad daylight on a straight street with at least 80 yards visibility.

She confessed to me that 'she forgot where the brake pedal was'

She is now in full time care, and can *just about* remember who I am.

She shrieked and raged at me for 'selling her car' ..up to three years ago she was still convinced she was a safe driver.

The point at which we really understood what was happening was when I was driving her through Newmarket, Suffolk, with a carful of the family

"What town is this?" she asked.

"Edinbrugh" I promptly replied...there was a dead silence.

"It's not like I imagined it would be" she said.

That was TWO YEARS BEFORE SHE STOPPED DRIVING. Well before she broke her hip and was hospitalised and they wouldn't let her go home to live on her own anymore. And we discovered the uneractive thyroid, and the vascular dengeneration..and a house FULL of exactly the same things she had bought, time and time again, because she forgot she had already got them. As well as all the little items she had hidden...from The Person Who Came into Her House and Hid Things..

She used to sound JUST like Mary..

Old age is like alcohol. The more you have of it the better you think you are and the worse you are actually getting.

David,

Having read the above, it's also highly likely that you could be talking about the newly qualified, young drivers, the ubiquitous 'white-van man', the ever-present 25ish rep with a mobile 'phone glued to his/her ear whilst driving along and trying to read a map/instructions/the latest sales figures, the 40ish local bus driver that I saw reading a magazine between stops whilst carrying a load of passengers, the 30ish something lady taking the kids to school and looking back and yelling at them in the back seat (and nearly wiping out a school crossing patrol in the process).

I could carry on for the next half hour or so writing out a very long list of what the 'younger/middle aged and older generation' do when they are distracted by other - and to them, more important things than actually driving around in a ton of metal (and I've seen all these instances [and done some of them] whilst driving some 35,000 miles a year) - in other words, it could be any driver of any age doing any number of silly things on any day of the year!

Remember -- There but for fortune go YOU or I.

Brian G

The Natural Philosopher typed

Thankfully, some people recognise mental impairment and act appropriately.

Having watched his mother's decline with Alzheimer's disease, Harold Wilson stopped running the country immediately after his first memory lapse...

These junction incidents where a person looks but somehow failed to see the normally obvious approaching vehicle are quite commno in all age brackets.

A fairly good way to avoid attack I'd say, and avoiding making it any more embarrassing than already is.

Really you can justify anything if you cant think straight.

NT

I can hold my hands up to that. After 15 years of driving, with an average of 30000 miles a year, I had only had one accident, a small rear end shunt when someone (age and sex unimportant) ran into the back of me at some red lights. That all changed when I messed up at a junction that I know well, wrote two cars off and hospitalised the other driver. I never saw him.

Adam

PS I did not have an airbag but I did have those seatbelt "retractors". The other driver did have an airbag. I only suffered a small bruise to the shoulder.

It's a difficult problem.

I was involved in a nasty situation with an older driver a few years ago. I was driving north on a major dual carriageway, in the right-hand lane, overtaking another car. I was probably doing around 75, the other car around 65. We were approaching a junction where a minor country road joined from the left.

A car was coming down the country road, to join the dual cariageway. I saw it approaching, and eased off the throttle so if he failed to stop at the junction, I would have time to stop safely.

I saw him slow down, and come to a stop at the junction with the dual carriageway evidently giving way, and so held my course and speed. I was down to 65 or so by now, and the guy on my left was also.

It took us around 10 seconds to reach the junction, where the other driver had stopped, and was apparently giving way.

When we were around 10 yards from the junction, the car pulled out right in front of us, trying to make a right-turn across the dual carriageway. He didn't pullout fast, in the manner of someone trying to make a quick crossig in front of us. He pulled out slowly and ponderously. Both cars on the D/C performed emergency braking. The offending vehicle had tootled across far enough to clear the left-hand land, but not the right-hand lane, and I hit him.

He got out of the car, and was around 90. He had only 1 eye, the one on the relevant side missing. "Sorry, sonny. I didn't see you'. No shit.

However, esp. in rural areas like Aberdeenshire, cars are essential for basic transport needs. There is no public transport infrastructure worth talking about. So what's the answer? How do we let older folks retain their mobility and independence?

I don't know what the answer is.

I work from home & my office overlooks garages & the backs of the opposite Courts (a quadrangle of terraced houses).

It was quite amusing at first watching peoples particular foibles when it came to driving; parking, etc!

In particular there was was one gentleman in his 80's (probably of the generation who never had to take a 'driving test'). It was quite amusing to watch him, he was obviously myopic & could only find his garage by aiming at specific "turning points", the problem was he was on foot at the time! When eventually he did manage to extract his beloved vehicle & access the 'main highway', he's an accident waiting to happen!

Unfortunately, the older we get.....eyesight detiorates...hand/eye co-ordiation isn't as sharp as it should be & our reaction time slows....but it takes a brave man (or woman) to admit it & hang up their spurs!

Don.

The message from "Brian G" contains these words:

You may well be right but there is an essential difference between the old fogey with delayed action reactions and the younger driver and that is the younger one is almost always capable of better driving should he or she put their mind to it while the old fogey is beyond hope, incapable of coping with the normal hazards of driving let alone any emergency.

We all make mistakes from time to time. The trick to surviving is to drive with sufficient verve to keep concentrating on the job in hand but with sufficient margin to cope both with your own shortcomings and those of the other drivers.

I hope I have sufficient strength of mind to keep to my often stated resolution to give up driving when I find 70 mph too fast for comfort under any circumstances.

I had almost the same thing happen to me. The only difference was that we avoided hitting the idiot cutting across. He was about 25 and just carried on as though nothing had happened.

I will certainly disagree with the above statement, I have seen some atrocious driving by the younger generation who seem to think that they are immortal - and very often create the "hazards" because they just need to get that one car in front - and they only get out of a dangerous sitution that they have caused by the skill and experience of the older driver in front who just happens to be keeping to the legal speed limit and very aware of what's going on around him/her - and believe it or not, because of this, their 'reactions' to a given situation are usually far better.

As a matter of interest, the most common situation that I see around where I live, is young drivers 'racing' each other on fairly narrow roads and then attempting to overtake a line of traffic - or each other - when approaching bends or blind corners and then when oncomings vehicle 'suddenly appear, it's the older and more experienced drivers who have 'read the situation correctly'to have to brake and 'let the idiots in' to avoid carnage.

I quite agree with you, but very often when that 'old-fogey' in front is concentrating on the job in hand, the impatient youngster behind (who is often listening to his/her boom box that's shaking their car apart, talking to their mates, touching up the girl/boyfriend and/or texting on the mobile at the same time) thinks that this doddery old fool is just holding them up for the sheer hell of it and *MUST* be overtaken whatever the speed limit road and/or weather conditions.

At the end of the day, there comes a time when most drivers have to call it a day and yes, a minority of older drivers are a danger. But, this also applies to some of the younger, less experienced drivers who - on passing their albeit very brief driving test - seem to think that they are the best drivers in the world, consider themselves to be immortal and all-knowing but are so dangerous they should be immediately banned.

It's also interesting to see who the insurance companies see as the greater risk - the young or old driver.

Brian G

Young age is like that too!

NT

The NE of Scotland seems to have the most appalling record of serious road accidents. And frequently drivers just running out of road with no other involved. I must admit the A90 south of Aberdeen scares me somewhat - a straight modern dual carriageway with many side turnings and crossings with loads of farm traffic.