Utility repair crews turned back

Oh, and we've both given to and received from for-profit utilities line reconstruction aid both with and without actual cost billing--it all depends on the utilities involved and also on how much effort may be involved for any single incident/utility. In a very widespread disaster region at a far distance from home it makes more sense to get reimbursement than to expect compensating aid down the road...our cooperating agreements are mostly w/ the more local areas where it's highly there's going to be ice damage pretty frequently (like every couple or three years) rather than really extreme event such as this.

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Reply to
dpb
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And, I just checked...we have ~8X the service area of PEPCO (~5000 sq mi compared to 640).

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Reply to
dpb

So was Ken Lay of ENRON fame ...

Reply to
NotMe

I didn't know he was Italian, he might be a cousin? ^_^

TDD

Reply to
The Daring Dufas

There needs to be sufficient investment to make transmission

Under the ground in NYC is an absolute cluster f*ck of layers upon layers upon layers of utilities that date back more than 100 years, and much of it is not in good condition. For example, the water mains that feed the entire city are controlled by enormous valves that are more than 100 years old, long overdue for replacement, yet cannot be shut off because they're afraid they would crumble and fail catastrophically. Which, eventually, they will, even if they don't touch them.

I think there are plenty of documentaries out there that detail our crumbling infrastructure fairly well. Maybe we should give up being the world's thug and start a new WPA with the money.

Reply to
Smitty Two

Now, they have a chance to rewire. That's a start.

Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus

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Under the ground in NYC is an absolute cluster f*ck of layers upon layers upon layers of utilities that date back more than 100 years, and much of it is not in good condition. For example, the water mains that feed the entire city are controlled by enormous valves that are more than 100 years old, long overdue for replacement, yet cannot be shut off because they're afraid they would crumble and fail catastrophically. Which, eventually, they will, even if they don't touch them.

I think there are plenty of documentaries out there that detail our crumbling infrastructure fairly well. Maybe we should give up being the world's thug and start a new WPA with the money.

Reply to
Stormin Mormon

I've heard that the "turned back" was not correct. OTOH, I smell a back pedalling cover up by the unions.

Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus

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Reply to
Stormin Mormon

Smitty Two wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@news.eternal-september.org:

At the moment they are rather far into finishing another main water supply tunnel into NYC. With incredible foresight they are hoping that will be completed before one or another of the 2 old tunnels, or their valves, fail(s).

Reply to
Han

The Daring Dufas wrote in news:k78ql3 $jj$ snipped-for-privacy@dont-email.me:

And this liberal is proposing that the NJ BPU and the local and state authorities should "encourage" the utilities to invest in better, more "hardened" transmission lines and substations, and to maintain properly the utility pole infrastructure. Perhaps that should cost money, perhaps even big money, but that would be an investment, and the rate payers would have to pay. Poor me.

Reply to
Han

We can't forget the evil rich stockholders like teacher's pension funds. ^_^

TDD

Reply to
The Daring Dufas

The trees are the problem.

Trees fall on the lines and break them.

If we really want a more reliable grid, we need to remove the trees growing near the lines.

Reply to
Saul Bloom

The Daring Dufas wrote in news:k7a2f2$glv$ snipped-for-privacy@dont-email.me:

No, we can't forget the pension funds that (in NJ) haven't been funded for years. The gvnmt has just squirreled it away and spent it, the former Dem gvnmt as well as the current Christie gvnmt. But that wasn't my point. My point is not that the stock holders should be stiffed (although, weren't they remiss in making sure their investment was safe, from storms as well as other hazards?). My point is that in order to have aproductive investment long term, one should harden the capital invested, i.e. make sure that the utility poles are not rotted and leaning, aren't in places where trucks and buses can knock them over, have wiring that isn't about to part, and have substations (quite an investment, each one) that aren't prone to flooding. I'm fairly sure that would cost many millions to achieve, but in the long run (if done right) would be cheaper than repairing things on the scale we are doing now. Irene, freak snowstorm, Sandy, the next nor'easter, etc.

And yes, the rate payers would have to pay off the bonds.

Reply to
Han

Saul Bloom wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@giganews.com:

Indeed, there are only 2 sure ways, underground or no trees. Neither will happen, because the trees shade the homes, and underground is too expensive. Judicious trimming is sometimes done, and everyone complains about the damage to the trees that look real weird afterwards (the tree trimmers aren't familiar with esthetics).

Reply to
Han

And the ocean-- a lot of the lines were pushed down by the ocean. we should move/remove that, too.

Jim

Reply to
Jim Elbrecht

Jim Elbrecht wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com:

It was just stupid to have so much infrastructure in places where this storm could reach it. Doesn't mean the sea has to moved. Only means you have to make sure tunnels, electrical substations and emergency generators can't possible get flooded like the ones in the subbasement of the Manhattan VA that were supposed to protect the freezers with YEARS of precious samples I collected. I am f'ing mad about that, though I am retired and it isn't my problem anymore.

Reply to
Han

snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com:

Perhaps they could just as easily point the finger at you and your organization and say that it was you who didn't prepare adequately by not putting important samples in sub-basements that can get flooded to begin with. Or if you did, having sufficient pumps and back-up generators to make sure they have a high probability of survival.

As to making huge infrastructures like electric distribution able to withstand 75 year events, I bet once the cost hits your utility bill you'd have a very different opinion. I'm not saying some modest improvements can't or shouldn't be made. Just that if you want your power back on in less than a week from a storm that statistically happens every 50 years or so, then it's going to cost a whole lot of money.

I don't know about you, but I survived here in NJ just a few miles from the ocean just fine with a generator for a week. And I think JCPL did a very good job restoring power. I had crews from Alabama working here. In one spot there were about 10 trucks repairing a section of a few poles that were down. In that regard, one of the most impressive photos I saw was of utility trucks being loaded on C-17's in California. They had at least 8 cargo planes ferrying them over here.

My house came out relatively well. Lost one big section of shingles, about 15 x 4 ft and had some minor water damage as a result. Two 35 year old trees came down, one blocked the garage. The other would have crushed my den, but I got lucky and it went the other way. Been busy cutting up firewood.

The shore here in NJ is devastated. By shore, I mean areas that are mostly a few blocks from the water. IT was the tidal surge that did most of the really bad damage, talking out whole houses. I told folks that were new here at the shore that the ocean has met the bay in hurricanes long past, but few can comprehend that. It's happened before, creating new inlets, closing others. This time it created an inlet right at the Mantoloking bridge. That bridge goes across Barnegat Bay, connecting the barrier island to land at that point. Right where the bridge is, the ocean swept across to the bay, creating a new inlet and submerging that end of the bridge. Last cound I saw there were 25 houses gone in Mantoloking and 25 so bad they have to be torn down. That's in a town of just 525 or so very expensive homes.

Anyone interested in some good shots of the damage can google "Mantoloking sandy images"

Reply to
trader4

Send the tree trimmers to school and train them in art of Bonsai. ^_^

TDD

Reply to
The Daring Dufas

  1. How much will it cost to get the electrical power supply system in NY and NJ back to where it was before the storm? Is billion reasonable?
  2. How much will it cost to "harden" the electrical power supply system and how long will it take? Just guessing, billion, five years of disruption while they tear up the streets.

Now which is the more prudent financial tack: $10 billion every 100 years or $30 billion one time?

To tell the truth, it might be cheaper for the power companies to supply each householder with a portable generator rather than harden the system!

Before you gasp, some thought has been given to "mini-grids," that is, each neighborhood wired to its own separate power distribution system that can be supplied from the big grid or a honkin' genset.

Reply to
HeyBub

I like those small nuclear reactors like what I saw proposed for Galena, Alaska but the expense of getting government approval has held it up. The proposed reactor, the Toshiba 4S is quite interesting and there are other micro reactors designed for large buildings to make them independent of the grid. ^_^

TDD

Reply to
The Daring Dufas

"HeyBub" wrote in news:EemdnT1XRrHQggTNnZ2dnUVZ snipped-for-privacy@earthlink.com:

I got the distinct impression that with at least 2 100-year floods in 2 years, a freak October snow storm a few months later that did as much damage to the electric distribution system as Irene did a few months before, and now a Sandy, which did about 3 times as much damage as Irene, that either we will be safe for another 500 years, or that climate change is really here. My bet is /not/ on being safe for 500 years. That means to me that investing in proper electrification and distribution systems is a good investment. People have been warning for years for exactly the kind of storm surge that did us in now. They aren't crying wolf. They are Cassandra - very good predictors of very unpleasant phenomena.

That is what I have done - buy a small, quiet generator to power the essentials. I meant to test it today, but didn't get to it.

We have a system like that, as I thought everyone did (or I misunderstand). Big honking generating stations, transmission lines to distribution stations, then substations, then high voltage lines off of which lower voltage distribution lines feed, and finally transformers to household quality powerlines off of which the individual homes are fed. The problem hereabouts is that the substations got flooded and had to be carefully cleaned and dried, and repaired and checked. Then they had to cut down and clean up the trees, erect new utility poles, string new wiring, install new transformers, and finally reconnect the homes. Check the wiring etc before throwing the switch to on. With crews from all over the country, they may finish most next weekend, at least 2 weeks after the storm. I don't know what is happening with this nor'easterthey named Athena, I think. Some extra outages have already been reported here. SO far, so good on my street ...

Reply to
Han

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