Too many Wires! Help with new wall outlet

I am far from expert, but I can install a duplex wall outlet.

In my 1970-era house there was a blank wall plate right where I would like a wall outlet.

I took off the plate and found a bare copper ground wire. Also two white wi res, two red wires and two black wires (all solid copper 12-gauge). The two black wires were fastened to each other with a "rubberized cap" of some so rt. The two white wires were fastened to each other the same way and the re d wires were fastened to each other the same way.

Called father-in-law who claims to know a lot. He told me it was set up for a 220-circuit and all I need to do was to unfasten all the wires, wire nut off one of each color and then take the remaining three wires (red, white and black) and fasten them as normal to my duplex outlet and reinstall into the wall.

Correct?

Reply to
timbirr
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wall outlet.

wires, two red wires and two black wires (all solid copper 12-gauge). The two black wires were fastened to each other with a "rubberized cap" of some sort. The two white wires were fastened to each other the same way and the red wires were fastened to each other the same way.

220-circuit and all I need to do was to unfasten all the wires, wire nut off one of each color and then take the remaining three wires (red, white and black) and fasten them as normal to my duplex outlet and reinstall into the wall.

no.

Reply to
chaniarts

wall outlet.

two red wires and two black wires (all solid copper 12-gauge). The two black wires were fastened to each other with a "rubberized cap" of some sort. The two white wires were fastened to each other the same way and the red wires were fastened to each other the same way.

220-circuit and all I need to do was to unfasten all the wires, wire nut off one of each color and then take the remaining three wires (red, white and black) and fasten them as normal to my duplex outlet and reinstall into the wall.

You should check with a tester. With the power off, take off the caps and leave the splices together. If it is for 220, the breaker that turns the circuit off should be a double pole breaker.

You should have 120 volts between red and white and also black and white. The red to black should read 220.

Reply to
Metspitzer

Not necessarily and not even terribly likely unless it's later than the age of the house--70s era didn't require 3-w/g for 240V. If it was pulled recently for dryer circuit then it's possible it is.

If original would be far more likely to have only two conductors plus ground than three and is more likely a traveler for 3- or 4-way switches or an Edison circuit w/ shared neutral...if the former it's odd there's a wall plate; if the latter it's odd the box is empty other than as the junction box.

Either way, as another suggested, find the circuit breaker controlling it and probe to find out what circuit it is first and what it is, second. It's possible it's not suitable; possibly it is but can't tell from here from the data supplied.

Reply to
dpb

I was thinking it may have been for a window AC (240) or may be for a switched outlet (120).

Reply to
Metspitzer

era house there was a blank wall plate right where I would like a wall outl et. I took off the plate and found a bare copper ground wire. Also two whit e wires, two red wires and two black wires (all solid copper 12-gauge). The two black wires were fastened to each other with a "rubberized cap" of som e sort. The two white wires were fastened to each other the same way and th e red wires were fastened to each other the same way. Called father-in-law who claims to know a lot. He told me it was set up for a 220-circuit and al l I need to do was to unfasten all the wires, wire nut off one of each colo r and then take the remaining three wires (red, white and black) and fasten them as normal to my duplex outlet and reinstall into the wall. Correct?

You need to find out what circuit those wires are on. See what the voltage is between the colored wires and the white wire. Also see what the voltag e is between the two colored wires. Turn on/off nearby light switches and test again to make sure that's not a traveler on a three way switch. Then do he same with the breakers and see what breaker they are on.

Reply to
jamesgang

wall outlet.

wires, two red wires and two black wires (all solid copper 12-gauge). The two black wires were fastened to each other with a "rubberized cap" of some sort. The two white wires were fastened to each other the same way and the red wires were fastened to each other the same way.

220-circuit and all I need to do was to unfasten all the wires, wire nut off one of each color and then take the remaining three wires (red, white and black) and fasten them as normal to my duplex outlet and reinstall into the wall.

As others have said, you first need to determine what you have, and then, where it's going. You could have a 240 volt 4 wire circuit, a

120/240 volt Edison circuit, possibly a leg of a three way switch circuit. What you have could already be feeding something that requires a dedicated line. You need to find what circuit breaker(s) control the wires and find out what goes dead with them turned off, before determining if you can use any of it for an outlet.
Reply to
RBM

O.K. Thanks to you all. I do appreciate the help.

I have to admit, however, that most of your terminology has left me more confused than enlightened. Sorry, I did say I don't know much.

I do understand, I think that this box may need to be as is, left alone that is, as it could feed other outlets.

There is a near-by duplex outlet on the same wall that is controlled by a toggle light switch on the wall, if that is any help.

Anyway, what I THINK, I understand is that I need to turn off power, take off insulating caps and then turn on the power and use my meter to check -- one-by-one -- any current between the red and white wire.

Then check for current between the black and white wire.

So, what do I do if there is no current -- the current is 110 or the current is

220 -- or the house blows up? ;>

If the circuit breaker trips? Or any of the other things that may happen. Or I guess I can check and then report back with results.

I think I am at the path here, I just need to take the first steps...

Reply to
timbirr

wall outlet.

two red wires and two black wires (all solid copper 12-gauge). The two black wires were fastened to each other with a "rubberized cap" of some sort. The two white wires were fastened to each other the same way and the red wires were fastened to each other the same way.

220-circuit and all I need to do was to unfasten all the wires, wire nut off one of each color and then take the remaining three wires (red, white and black) and fasten them as normal to my duplex outlet and reinstall into the wall.

If so, you'd have a 220 volt outlet. Why would you want that except for a big room air conditioner?

Better than a test light is a voltmeter. For 4 dollars or so at Harbor Frieght, $18 at Home Depot or Radio Shack, you can get a digital mulitmeter that will measure volts and a whole lot more.

Take the caps (wire nuts, I guess) off and carefully touch the meter probes to each combination of two wires, and see what the readings are.

(Digital does have its problems that analog (a meter with a needle) does not. Sometimes it sees induced voltages, and shows up to 30 volts when there really isn't any. But if it says 30 or less, that's the same as zero, and the other two choices are110 to 120 and 220.to

240.

If you go to radio shack, buy a bag of 10 wires with alligator clips on each end. Then you can clip one meter probe to one of the wires and you can concentrate on putting the other probe exactly where you want it (on each of the other two colors) .

Reply to
micky

Its far easier, to install a new outlet in a new box fed from a convenient nearby location....

it elminates the risk of mucking something up, thats working but may not have been to code to begin with.

it elminates the issue of a jammed tight overfilled box. will there be room for ALL the wires plus the outlet?

the easy way is just install a new everything........

Reply to
bob haller

confused than enlightened. Sorry, I did say I don't know much.

is, as it could feed other outlets.

If it feeds other outlets, you can still use it.

toggle light switch on the wall, if that is any help.

If this is the case. You will have one wire that will show 120 (black would be a good guess) with the switch on or off. The other wire will have 120 with the switch on and 0v with the switch off.

insulating caps and then turn on the power and use my meter to check -- one-by-one -- any current between the red and white wire.

220 -- or the house blows up? ;>

guess I can check and then report back with results.

Reply to
Metspitzer

The reason they want you to turn off the power is so you can take the wire nuts off safely, so your test meter has bare wires to contact.

Isn't that a catch-22? Until you have the wire nuts off, you have no way of telling if you got the right breaker. You won't know when the power is off.

Worse, with that many wires, you may have more than one circuit, from more than one breaker. It's not impossible that the red and black wires are on separate circuits. They shouldn't be, but still could be.

Reply to
TimR

confused than enlightened. Sorry, I did say I don't know much.

is, as it could feed other outlets.

toggle light switch on the wall, if that is any help.

insulating caps and then turn on the power and use my meter to check -- one-by-one -- any current between the red and white wire.

For the record, you'll be checking voltage (pressure). You won't have any current to speak of until you connect a lightbulb or something between the two.

Again, voltage. That's why you use a VOLTmeter, not an AMmeter. If you try to use an ammeter (one or more of the settings on the multimeter) straight between a hot wire and a neutral or ground, without a lightbulb or something else also in the circuit, you'll burn out that setting of the meter.

220 -- or the house blows up? ;>

Each of these two times that you say current, you mean voltage. Many others make this mistake too. Don't let them influence you.

If there is no voltage, perhaps the breaker for this circuit needs to be turned on. Are any of your breakers in the Off position?

Or the wires were disconnected somewhere, but probably not, since they covered up the wires so nicely. .

The breaker may trip if you try to connect one wire of a multimeter in the ammeter setting to a hot wire, and the second wire to a neutral or ground. But you will use a voltmeter setting becaues you are trying to measure voltage, not current or amps.

And you will use the 2000 volt setting, or 1000, or 250, but whatever you use, it will be more than 240, because if you use a 200 volt setting on the meter with 240 actual volts, you may burn out that portion of your meter. (Expensive and moderately priced meters have over-voltage protection, but I don't suppose anything under 24 dollars has that.)

report back with results.

And perhaps you should also get in the habit of saying AC or DC. Household voltage is Alternating, but the voltage in most parts of a tv or computer is Direct. (Yes, it's Alternating Current and Direct Current, but when they say that, they assume there is current, not someone measuring voltage with no current. If you keep track of whether you're dealling with DC or AC, it will help you choose the right setting on your meter, which is divided between AC and DC. If you use the wrong setting, AC vs. DC you won't burn anything out, but you won't get the correct reading.)

Reply to
micky

if in doubt at ALL turn off main breaker to home before doing anything........

then set up to test....

Reply to
bob haller

off safely, so your test meter has bare wires to contact.

telling if you got the right breaker. You won't know when the power is off.

When I was 9 or 10, we had trouble with one outlet or light. My father had died and my mother called an electrician. He unscrewed all the fuses and then screwed them in one at a time until the problem showed up again***. I was sort of humiliated that I hadn't thought of that. (My mother hadn't even asked me to fix it, but I thought I should.)

***This works best in the daytime.

one breaker. It's not impossible that the red and black wires are on separate circuits. They shouldn't be, but still could be.

Reply to
micky

off safely, so your test meter has bare wires to contact.

telling if you got the right breaker. You won't know when the power is off.

one breaker. It's not impossible that the red and black wires are on separate circuits. They shouldn't be, but still could be. Didn't get in on the start of this thread, but if the red and black are on outlets, they are likely splits - and they WILL be on different circuits - but by law they need to be on tied breakers od fuse pulls that cannot have one fuse removed at a time.. Thing is, you don't know who wired it, when, and how - so you don't bet your life on it.

Reply to
clare

off safely, so your test meter has bare wires to contact.

telling if you got the right breaker. You won't know when the power is off.

one breaker. It's not impossible that the red and black wires are on separate circuits. They shouldn't be, but still could be. Other than a split receptacle or a 220 circuit, the ONLY place you should find a red wire is as a "traveller" in a 3 way or 4 way switch circuit.

Reply to
clare

wall outlet.

two red wires and two black wires (all solid copper 12-gauge). The two black wires were fastened to each other with a "rubberized cap" of some sort. The two white wires were fastened to each other the same way and the red wires were fastened to each other the same way.

220-circuit and all I need to do was to unfasten all the wires, wire nut off one of each color and then take the remaining three wires (red, white and black) and fasten them as normal to my duplex outlet and reinstall into the wall.

To me it just sounds like someone didn't have a long enough wire to run a 220 circuit and put in a junction box.

Reply to
Ashton Crusher

OK - from what you describe, it is simply being used as a "junction box" 2 wires that were 2 short joined in an accessible location according to code. What we do NOT know is where they come from and go to.. My STRONG suspicion is you have a "split" circuit - what many of you Americans call an "edison" circuit. This SHOULD be on a tied breaker or a double pole breaker. Being 12 guage I would suspect a 20 amp breaker - code for countertop outlets in kitchens around here. IF it is, you will have 120 from both black and red to white, and 240 from black to red (ok, 115 and 230, or something close). Check what circuit it is and whether it has to be a "separate" circuit or if it can have multiple outlets by code. If multiples are allowed, you can add either another "split" or a duplex on either the black or red side. On a "split" you need to remove the link between the 2 dark screws on the one side of the outlet.

I
Reply to
clare

confused than enlightened.  Sorry, I did say I don't know much.

hat is, as it could feed other outlets.

toggle light switch on the wall, if that is any help.

ake off insulating caps and then turn on the power and use my meter to chec k  -- one-by-one -- any current between the red and white wire.

ent is 220 -- or the house blows up? ;>

Or I guess I can check and then report back with results.

All kidding aside, the first step here may be to call an electician or at least someone who is familiar with the basic concepts. As others have said, you need to find out what circuit these wires are on, what else they serve, etc. If they are part of a 3-way switch for example, then they aren't going to work for your outlet. Or one or the other could be on a switch. The most basic step before adding anything is to figure out which circuit they are on and what else is on that circuit.

Reply to
trader4

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