Shock with switch off..

[Pop Rivet]

killed, only that he

a loose wirenut or

the one right in

properly and check the lamp

No, not so at all: The loose nut was the one fooling with the fixture/s. The right perspective is, he was doing something he had no business doing because of his lack of knowledge and experience, as evidenced by many other posters in this thread. It's made for interesting reading, but it's getting boring now. ONLY getting a shock instead of dying is a lucky fluke in his case because he (and no one else) doesn't KNOW what he had in front of him.

Pop

[Greg]

I guess that means "turn off the breaker"?

Do you think that may be why it is the first thing in the installation instructions?

Maybe he will read them next time huh?

If everyone reading this thread picks up on that one our work is done. ;-)

[toller]

Gee, I though we were talking about 120v. One of us is a moron.

You are denying that neutrals are not grounded, or do you not understand the concept of resistance. A neon tester has almost no resistance, so significant current will flow through it to a good ground. A person has very high resistance, so virtually no current will flow through the person.

You and Doug can babble to each other.

[HA HA Budys Here]

I see, you reasoning applies only to 120v circuits and no other?

No, far from it. I'm not denying neutrals are grounded. The point is that even though the neutrals are grounded, current will take unexpected alternate routes to ground even though the entire electromechanical neutral system is totally up to par.

Why, when the neutral is grounded just as well? The neon tester HAS to be a higher resistance than a continious, properly connected and eventually grounded neutral path, no?

Virtually, huh? Now it's "virtually."

[xrongor]

no matter how good your advice, every time you spout this garbage it kills whatever credibility you have. you have a better chance of dying from falling off the chair from losing your balance than from getting electrocuted.

be safe. be smart. dont be scared.

randy

[Doug Miller]

You haven't the faintest idea what you're talking about. A neon tester has an _extremely_high_ resistance, so that hardly _any_ current will flw through it. That's why you *don't* get a very bright arc, when you connect one of those testers across hot and ground.

If you have one of those testers, open it up and see what's inside. Mine has a

150K-ohm resistor in it. That's not exactly my definition of "almost no resistance".

Wrong again. The internal resistance of a human body is nowhere nearly that high. Think about it for just two seconds, Toller: human beings are mostly water.

-- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)

Get a copy of my NEW AND IMPROVED TrollFilter for NewsProxy/Nfilter by sending email to autoresponder at filterinfo-at-milmac-dot-com You must use your REAL email address to get a response.

[Greg]

You mean like falling off the ladder when that "safe" white wire tingles you? It is NEVER "safe" to handle exposed white wires in an energized circuit. Any other EE dorm room chat about voltage drop and skin conductivity only tends to justify a practice that will eventually bite you. As you pointed out, it doesn't have to be the couple hundred MA necessary to cause V-fib, just enough to startle you and make you fall off the ladder.

[HA HA Budys Here]

Ugly bags of mostly water, according to one Star-Trek episode...

[xrongor]

man it sure took some creative snipping and a hard head to arrive at this conclusion based on what i actually said..

did i ever say you shouldnt cut power at the breaker? did i ever say you shouldnt put test leads on to see if there is power? did i ever say it was 'safe'? no. no. no.

all im saying is that touching a hot wire isnt the instant death pop makes it out to be.

randy

[Bill Schnakenberg]

One thing that no one has mentioned so far, is the false shock. A neophyte working in a switch or outlet box, assumes that he turned off the power to the box. While working in the box and probably anticipating a shock, part of his hand touches the end of a bare wire. Because he is highly sensitive to an electrical shock, the touch of that sharply cut wire gives the impression of an electrical shock, and he recoils. This is similar to having a person blindfolded, and is being told that a boiling hot cup of water will be poured on his hand. Even if a cold cup of water is poured on his hand, he will immediately think it is boiling. The difference is that once his hand has recoiled from the water pour, he will have either hot water or cold water on his hand and will feel the difference. Once his hand recoils from the wire, he has no idea whether that 'shock' was actually electrical, or just the sense of a contact with a sharp wire end.

[clifto]

I'll deny that neutrals are not grounded. But I know what you meant.

[Greg]

10-4 we are on the same page. sorry for the confusion.

[Pop Rivet]

killed

heart.

it to

garbage it kills

of dying from

getting

Your are demonstrating ignorance of fact and the danger of electricity flow through the heart muscle. You do know, of course, that electricity, once inside the body, will follow blood vessels, right? I think you still need some education. Oh, and about my credibility: If that ruins it for you, then so be it - no skin off my nose if you can't be around tomorrow because you did something stupid.

Pop

[Pop Rivet]

...

death pop makes

It can take approximately 1/60th of a second to send the heart muscle into spasm. Or ventricular fibrilation as has been mentioned. That's not instant, but in the overall scheme of things, it's pretty hard to call it anything else. If you caught the voltage at its zero crossing, maybe you could touch it safely for about 1/600th of a second, but then on the other hand, touching it at one of its peaks for

1/600th of a second, if there is sufficient current behind it, could also put you into v-fib. I once knew an electrician who bragged about all the shocks he'd received, and how he could grab onto a hot wire without it hurting him. Actually, it can be done, but ... not reliably. He's no longer with us.

Pop

[Pop Rivet]

ground. Since ground

current you can get

any handy 277v

with a load on it with

using a neon tester

ground. WHY does the

eventually, tied to ground?

shock.

he turned off

probably anticipating

Because he is

sharply cut

recoils.

being told that a

if a cold cup

it is boiling.

water pour,

and will feel

has no idea

sense of a

That's an excellent observation! And also very true.

[xrongor]

i hear you. i understand what can happen. electricity 'can' kill you. i never bragged that i could touch a hot wire. nor would i even try it on purpose. thats just stupid.

nonetheless, by the numbers, you have a better chance, as an american, of dying from a terrorist attack than from being electrocuted. saws and drills are dangerous too, but you dont see someone posting about all the ways to die every time someone asks for help building a deck. people should be aware of the actual risks and actual safety procedures. if they are correctly followed doing electrical work is about as dangerous as building a deck.

if it were as dangerous as you make it out to be there is no way we would have the types of outlets we have in our houses.

randy

[Joe C]

Did I miss it, or did anyone bring up the possibility of shared neutrals?

Once upon a time, I got a very mild shock from a neutral on a circuit (which was off at the breaker), only to find out that the neutral was shared across more than one breaker, and, as many people have pointed out, therefore carried some current (since other things on that other circuit were on).

I'm not an electrician, nor do I play one on the computer.

[Doug Miller]

Yep, Toller did -- and he *completely* missed the significance of it.

Ayup.

[barry martin]

James:

J > Replacing a light fixture Saturday and received a shock with the switch J > turned off. After taking down the old fixture I had two white wires (twiste

J > together) and one black. Brushed the bare white pair and got a shock (may J > have been touching the ground at the time but i'm not sure). How is this J > possible? The wiring in the house is original (cira 1984) except for a few J > fixture replacements.

Not sure if I should get involved in the little flame-wars going on with this thread but what the heck!

I'd guess the switch is somehow wired incorrectly: the black and white wires got reversed some where. The switch is switching the neutral, normally the white wire but in your case is the black. As another poster or two indicated, don't trust someone else's wiring. The circuit will work: an open (such as a switch) will stop the flow of electricity. Doesn't matter whether it's on the "black" side or the "white". Remember those Christmas tree bulbs where one bulb goes out and they all go out?

In order to get a shock you would have had to complete the circuit, from "hot" to ground, or at least a lower potential. Doesn't really matter how, more importantly to fix the probably hot/neutral reversal. Check your outlets on this circuit -- an outlet tester would be a fast way, though possible if they tapped from an outlet the black/white reversal is at the tap at the outlet and the outlet is wired correctly.

- ¯ barry.martinþATþthesafebbs.zeppole.com ®

• You don't have to offer a reward to find lost weight.

[Doug Miller]

It's pretty plain from this that *your* understanding of "the concept of resistance" is tenuous at best.

My digital multimeter, according to the manual, will measure resistance up to 40 M-ohm, yet it shows infinite resistance across the leads of my neon tester (indicating that the resistance of the tester is > 40 M-ohm). Opening the tester reveals a 150 K-ohm resistor in series with the neon lamp. Neither figure is compatible with my understanding of "almost no resistance".

Holding the multimeter leads tightly between the thumb and finger of each hand shows the resistance of this person to be approximately 200 K-ohm. That's a fairly high value, but the resistance of the neon tester is at least twenty times higher, and clearly *much* more current can flow through a human body than through one of those neon testers.