running out of hot water

[Ryan]

Heater: Electric. 50 gallons. 240V. Two 4500w elements (the ones that curl around) Thermostats both set to 130F.

Symptoms: After about 15 minutes, a hot shower turns to warm and then quickly turns to ice cold. This didn't seem to be a problem in the summer.

What I've done: Last winter, I had the same problem, but much worse. After a lot of reading and learning about hot water heaters, I found that the dip tube had broken off inside the tank. At that time I replaced the dip tube and the anode rod. I also wrapped the tank with an insulation blanket. The result was unlimited hot water. Great!

I'm having the same problem this year. I decided to replace my elements with the long doubled (curl) type. $20 each! That didn't solve my problem. I've tested the thermostats. I believe they are working properly. This is how I tested them: Verified that power is getting to the top element after setting the top thermostat to its maximum setting. Verified that power is getting to the bottom element after setting the top thermostat to its minimum setting and setting the bottom thermostat to its maximum setting. I was basically just making sure the flow of power was correct.

Questions:

Was my thermostat test adequate? Is it possible that I melted the top of the dip tube when I soldered the connections last winter? This year, when I replaced the elements, I peeked inside to make sure the dip tube was still connected. It was. When the top element was removed and the water was just below the element hole, I turned the water on and looked for splashing inside the tank. I didn't see any. I'm assuming splashing would occur if there was a hole in the dip tube.

Any other ideas?

Thanks. Ryan Grimard

[C.J.]

You tested the elements to see if they're getting voltage, but that would not indicate that they are actually working. The only way to do that would be with an ammeter that would measure the CURRENT going THROUGH each element (amps), not the VOLTAGE being supplied TO it. You could also remove the wires from the elements and ohm them out. At the same time, check with a meg-ohm meter to see if they're grounded at all. It sounds to me like you've lost your lower element. I had an electric heater that I could not keep running for more than a year with hard water.

[Joseph Meehan]

I sounds like you have one element out. You need to measure current through the elements, not just voltage to them.

[Mark]

Got a teenage son/daughter?

[SQLit]

Sounds like one element probably the top one is not working correctly. If you do not have an Amp meter then do this. With a cool or cold tank. Open the top cover and find the thermostat. Crank it up to max do you something like a coffee maker? Should be no more than 30 seconds no noises then that element is bad/or is not working. Do the same for the bottom element. This will help you isolate the problem. Please becareful there are live parts in there and it could be a shocking situation.

When the water is colder it takes longer for it to get warm. I would set the top element at 145 and the bottom one for 135 or so. This should make your tank stratify when cold water is introduced.

[RB]

In the summer the incoming water was quite a bit warmer so the recovery was faster.

RB

Mark wrote:

[John Hines]

If the wires are accessible, I'd suggest you get yourself a clamp on ammeter, which will allow you to measure the volts and amps used by the elements. Then you can tell if the element is working.

Should be $50-$100 at most, and will serve you well over the years.

I got one when I tried to measure the mains voltage with my old trusty vom set on DC amps. (ouch!)

[TURTLE]

This is Turtle.

Without the right tools your fighting a unbeatiable battle. What you need to do is get you the 2 thermostats, 2 elements, dip tube, and a pop off valve and just replace them and you will have a brand new tank and nothing can go wrong if everything is new. With everything new you can't have trouble at all. tis is costly but it will solve it. You can buy everything for about $100.00 and be done with it.

TURTLE

[AJScott]

I'm just going to pass on an idea or two, since I not only have a Monkey Wards 800 Energy Saver 800 Special Edition glass-lined 40-gallon tank that no only has had the moth-eaten dip tube replaced, but services a house with 5 adult/young adult women who always seem to get in the shower and suck up the hot water before me ... and I always seem to have a fair amount of hot water:

1) If I were you, I'd start looking at what might possibly have happened between the time you wrapped the tank and had unlimited hot water and now, when you'd have more hot water if you boiled it in a big witches' cauldron on your stove.

I'm not sure what kind of Luke Skywalker double-thermostat setup you have in your house since I and everyone I know have only one place to set the water temperature -- and that's on the big red temp-setting dial attached to the tank itself. Perhaps someone was futzing around with something next to it and knocked the setting to a lower temperature. If it can happen in my house a week or three ago by someone digging out boxes of Xmas ornaments stored several feet away, it can happen in anyone's house, I guess.

If that's not it, then ...

2) If totally everything has failed your inspection(s) and the inspection(s) of an actual HVAC guy, maybe it's just time to bite the bullet and quit wasting your time on a lost cause and just buy a new damn water heater. Nobody like spending a few hundred bucks on a new water heater, but it beats the shit out of taking lukewarm showers and banging your head against a wall trying to figure out what's wrong with the tank or its associated mechanicals. But again, that's just me. Do whatever makes you happy.

AJS

[HA HA Budys Here]

You're describing a GAS water heater. The OP has electric, which typically have

2 heating elements and each is controlled by a seperate thermostat. Usually, these are hidden behind 2 access panels, one near the bottom, and the other 1/2 way up.

The upper element in an electric water heater takes precedence over the lower element. Meaning, when the upper element calls for heat, the bottom 1/2 the tank is already cold due to it being used.

As the upper element calls for heat, the lower one is turned off so the upper can heat the top portion of the tank only. The lower element will get power to heat only after the upper element is satisfied.

If you're quickly running out of hot water, chances are the lower element is shot and the bottom 1/2 of the tank is always cold.

You've checked that the bottom element is getting power, but is it heating up?

[AJScott]

Yikes. Thanks for pointing out the error of my ways. My bad that I keep forgetting ther are other people in the world who are on primitive ways of making fire. I promise I'll do better next time.

Two different heating elements controlled by 2 separate thermostats hidden behind 2 different access panels. And to think that all this time, I thought the world was happy with dealing with just a sigle all-in-one fire/temp regulation package that NG water heaters are. Again, my bad.

If I recall right, all this heating-hierarchy I think happens within the tank even with NG water heaters, too. But all in all, methinks it's easier for your clueless homeowner like myself to maybe pin down our basic problem more directly and more easily with our NG units.

Which means, like I said, it's probably just time to dump the durn thing and buy a new one. Manufacturers only warranty 'em new for 5 years for a reason, methinks ;)

AJS

[HA HA Budys Here]

Heck give yourself some credit for trying!

There ARE smaller electric heaters with only 1 element at the bottom, and those "shorty" units often found in the ceilings of strip shopping centers, often run on 120v as well... but generally, a house with an electric water heater will be the standard tall unit with 2 elements, 2 thermostats, and 2 removable access panels. Actually 3 if you count the cover on top where the cable enters!

Well, yes because heat rises. If only the bottom element worked, it would eventually heat the entire tank, but you'd never get really "hot" hot water until the entire tank fully recovered. That's why there's an upper element to take on the task of heating the top portion ONLY when so much hot water has been drawn off so quickly that you risk actually having no heated water to any degree at all. An ice cold tank would take a few hours to fully recover, but it can heat the top portion nicely (usually the top 1/3) and reasonably fast if it can concentrate on the top portion only.

Then again, if one has an electrical service capable of supplying BOTH upper and lower elements simultaniously, then the WH could be connected that way, vastly cutting down on the number of times you "almost run out."

I've seen them at Sears and the Borg for 12 years, however, that's on the tank integrity ONLY and not any of the electro-mechanical parts. And these permier models probably aren't sold where people have really bad water...

I'm surrounded by developments that are turning 30-35 years old and people are just now seeing their gas WH's crap out. BUt we have really good, pure water here that's PH neutral.

[Ryan]

As described below, I replaced both elements just a few weeks ago. I replaced the dip tube and anode rod last year. Replacing the dip tube last year fixed my problem. (it was broken off..) Last night I removed the fitting from the intake nipple. My dip tube is the kind that is built into the nipple. The plastic within the nipple seemed to be in perfect order. No signs of over heating. My fear was that I had overheated the plastic while soldering last year. Even the thin rubber flap which keeps the hot water from rising was fine.

At this point, I believe my options are:

1. Remove the nipple in order to inspect the dip tube. The problem here is that removing that thing is nearly impossible. Last year, I destroyed the thing while getting it out. My local plumbing store is ordering one for me now, so I can't attempt this option quite yet.
2. Further testing on the thermostats? I see that many people are suggesting I test with an ammeter. I don't have one. Would this indicate a problem with the thermostat? Or with the element? As I said, I replaced the elements a few weeks ago. I tested each element (with wires removed) for conductivity and I get about 12 ohms. I believe this is correct.

Thanks again. Ryan

[George E. Cawthon]

Unless one of the things you buy is bad out of the box. Isn't replacing everything a bit excessive? Some electrical shops have sheets that show you how to test everything.

[George E. Cawthon]

Well you are wrong. Electric water heaters are much easier to fix and nearly maintenance free and the maintain the water temperature more evenly. There is no gas burner to futz with, just straight old electricity which either works or doesn't. And gas thermostats, in my experience, have a wide range between off and on. The electric thermostats may, but are not likely to need changing. The elements will, but they are relatively easy to change and cheap. Manufactures have 5 year warranties so they can sell cheaper and raise the price considerably if they have a 7-10 year warranty. And electric water heaters, even the cheapest, commonly last 15-20 years. If you lived in an electric area, you would know that lots of electric water heaters last much longer.

[George E. Cawthon]

Your temperature is set a bit low and that may be part of the problem. Have you test the water at a faucet, and what temperature did you get? Are both thermostats set to 130? In any event you need to test the water temperature and set the tank to deliver water at 130 if that is what you want.

Thermostats are easy to test, and you can test with a voltmeter. All you are doing is seeing if the thermostat closes, so all you need to do is measure the potential (voltage) at the downstream end. You may very well have an element that doesn't work, maybe never worked. You test elements the same way as thermostats, after you make sure the thermostats close.

See if an electrical supply has give out sheets for checking thermostats and elements. Don't know if Lowes or Home Depot have them or not.

Soldering? What were you soldering on a water heater? I can't imagine what you would be soldering so may that's a line to investigate.

Ryan wrote:

[TURTLE]

This is Turtle.

Well you say less than $100.00 is too much.

Well you can get a trouble shooting guide from Rheem / Ruud / or who ever makes the tank $20.00. Get you a VOM UEI brand to test with $97.00. Spend 1 or 2 days learning how to use them. Get you a amp meter clamp type Amprobe brand $ 112.00 . Spend 1 or 2 day getting use to using them. You have spent $229.00 + tax to start and have 50 / 50 chance of figuring it out. If you feel lucky -- go for it.

Now you said Electric shops have a sheet on how to test everything. Yes they do but it will not do you any good without at least $300.00 worth of tools to use on each test they have on the sheet. At the top of the sheet it list the tools needed to do the test and does say if you don't have these tools to work with get them before beginning testing.

Now to the real world on trouble shooting these tanks and general thoughts on them.

Intermitten problem --- change both thermostats. Just not suppling enough hot water -- change both elements. Stops working all together and is supplied with electric power --- Change both thermostats and elements. If you look at the operation manual. You will see you need to change the thermostats and element every 10 to 12 years or so. They don't last for ever.

Now the thought of spending a $100.00 right now to stop all this problem seem very high to you ,but if you would have changed everything a year ago you would not be talking here to day and off watching TV or surfing the internet. Now Figure up what you have spent so far and see if a $100.00 is too much to stop all the problems a year ago. If you don't want to spend less than a $100.00 to stop the problem. just keep on posting here and one day you may get lucky. The shotgun theory is good on small appliances but not on large appliances.

TURTLE

[TURTLE]

This is Turtle.

Ha Ha , the original poster stated that he had changed both elements and it had no effect on it.

TURTLE

[HA HA Budys Here]

Turtle:

Yes, he did. I was summarizing each possible failure senerio. May be the upper stat is not properly connected to the lower, or the upper stat isn't operating correctly, switching to bypass once satisfied so the lower portion can do it's job, or the lower stat isn't properly connected to the upper, or to it's accompanying element...

Or maybe both are just set too darn low. 130 seems lukewarm to me... Isn't 150 considered minimum, 180 if you have a dishwasher?

[Ryan]

Both are set at 130, as recommended. I can check the temp at the faucet. Good idea.

Both elements are working. When I crank up the thermostat, I can hear the element heating up. I tried this on both elements.

There is a copper fitting that screws onto the nipple. I had to solder the copper fitting to the copper pipe supplying cold water. The soldering wasn't ON the water heater, but close enough to possibly cause heat damage. I added a union later and don't need to solder anymore :)