Removal of roof truss cross-members, to make for easier attic storage access...[??]

It's adding a substantial load just sitting there and it's overkill. It will help spread out load, it won't add to the overall capacity.

That's the problem - the builders brag about meeting minimum standards (as if that's an accomplishment) and then people buy them regardless. Price comes before quality as usual.

Mike

My parents house which I later bought from them was built in 1952. It has 2X8 floor joists on joined together above the load bearing wall, which is on top of the steel I-beam in the basement. The roof is 2X6 rafters. Some of the best built homes were built in the 1950's and

If he dont cut out any truss pieces, he dont have to touch the roof. But the OP said he wants to remove some truss uprights. Otherwise, just adding some additional joists would be fine, and be sure they are on a load bearing wall.

They MUST be load bearing walls. In most homes the wall down the center of the house IS the load bearing wall. The way to find out is to see if that wall is on top of the support beam in the basement.

Well, it's called resale value, and/or the kids can move in. I bought my parents home when I was in my 30's. If that had been one of these newer homes, the house would have been pretty much spent.

I didn't know they make "attic trusses". But if they are as costly as you are saying, then I'd think using dimensional lumber would be about the same price, both in materials and labor. I realize trusses go up faster, but normally a crane is needed to lift them to the roof, and renting or owning and running that crane adds to the cost of the labor. Stick construction just requires some men to lift the boards. I personally have never found it all that difficult to frame a roof with boards. Once the first two rafters are cut to size, it's just a matter of duplicating the angles and nailing them in place. putting on the decking is the same as with trusses.

Mark

And, "what the customer doesn't know won't hurt him..."? Uh huh. I used to work in floor covering and dealt with many a commission salesman... Talk about tunnel-vision! You can recite any of the litany of self-serving excuses all you like. I've heard them all before.

Ken

I don't think Goedjn was commenting on the morality of doing inferior work - not that trusses are in and by themselves inferior, but more that the OP didn't have to buy the house in the first place. If he needed attic storage, he should have bought attic storage or insured that it was doable on his budget. If he didn't do the homework, he shouldn't hold it against anyone but himself.

Well, you can get trusses designed to provide attic space.

Matt

Pick-up-sticks construction? They don't just lift them, they have to put them together. That takes time ($$$). Even with the cost of a crane, there's no way that hand-built roofs in the field can be cheaper than factory built roof trusses unless you're talking about building _one_ house with cheap labour.

Mike

Maybe where you live, but I've seen lots of bungalows built with a centre support beam holding up the floors and full span roof trusses. The centre wall in those cases is not load bearing.

Mike

I [the OP] didn't take him to be commenting in any way on "morality" in any way. My comment was simply to convey my personal distaste for builders and/or other vendors, even other consumers, etc, who are just plain "cheap". IOW, what's wrong with a little "class"? I will accept however, that most people don't care to possess much in the way of this quality. So I am well out-voted by the majority here.

Ken

How does "class" enter into it? I'm not sure what you could mean by that. Do you mean that a builder should just throw in all sorts of extras and upgrades for free to show he has class?

You wrote: "Rant: For a home that sold for hundreds of thousands of dollars, you'd think the builder could've been a little more liberal budgetwise and built the house to higher spec."

The builder didn't set prices for the materials he bought, the subcontractors he used, the land in your area, etc., etc. He set the sale price for the house based on what he thought the market would bear. If he, or a subsequent owner that you purchased it from, had priced it higher you might not have bought it, or it might not have sold at all. It's a balancing act. If the builder was a fly by night, or cut every imaginable corner, this should have shown up when you were doing your research.

Since you bought the house, you must have felt it was a good value at the time, based on your research into the housing market in your area.

have been afraid to spend the necessary money. So how did the building all of a sudden become cheaply made?

Obviously it didn't change from when you had it inspected and made your offer. You did have it professionally inspected, right? If the house is as shoddily built as you say, I'm surprised that the inspector didn't steer you away from the house you're in.

I'm not sure if this is the first home you've bought, but it sounds like you've come to realize that you now have higher expectations for your house, and have learned more about how houses are built.

Looking on the bright side, with the market the way it is, your house is probably increasing in equity value fairly rapidly - regardless of the way it was built.

Accounting is just a tool. As with any tool, the tool itself doesn't determine what your mix of priorities are to be. "People", with their objectives, interests, values, aspirations and desires etc. ultimately determine that. If the people don't enter "quality control" into their accounting equations, it is 'people' who have chosen to not do so, not the 'science of accounting'.

You seem to imply that "quality" is some kind of silly, superfluous, entity, which is non-essential to productive business activity. Though I expect no shortage of, say... overpaid government bureacrats, slick talking used-car salesmen, or back street drug dealers, etc... who'd likely be eager to agree with you, I for one beg to differ!:~)

Ken

Oh, I really have disturbed a bees nest!

Ken

On Sat, 02 Jul 2005 07:37:11 GMT, "Ken Moiarty" scribbled this interesting note:

Sorry if what I said seemed to imply what you inferred. It was not my intention. The point being exactly as you made it. The lack of quality is caused by a short term focus on one portion of the equation, that being the bottom line at the end of the day, instead of the end of the decade. It is an unfortunate state of affairs that the "Wal-Mart" syndrome is everywhere...

-- John Willis (Remove the Primes before e-mailing me)

Thanks John. You're vocabulary has picked-up where mine has fallen short. Yes, it is exactly this "Wal-Mart syndrome", which seems to be afflicting areas ranging from construction to health-insurance, that has got my goat. Well said.

Ken

Maybe a terminology difference. Here, I believe there isn't a "structural engineer" designation per-se, it's a specialty in civil. My dad was a civil, and he did structures, tho, his main work was in other stuff.

If you time your truss delivery properly, then the delivery driver will lift them onto the roof for you. All you need to is roll them up and nail them down.

The designation of "civil" vs "structural" engineer will vary by state. The requirements for becoming a "Structural" engineer also vary by state.

In Washington State, you must be a licensed PE (civil, mechanical, mining, etc.) before you are allowed to sit for the structural exam.

A summary of requirements goes like this:

1. 4 years college or appropriate work experience
2. Take and pass the Engineer-in-Training exam (8 hours)
3. 4 years work experience for a total of 8 years counting college
4. Take and pas the PE exam in an appropriate discipline (usually civil)
5. 2 more years work experience
6. Take and pass the NCEES Structural I and II exams (16 hours)
7. Take and pas the Western states seismic exam (8) hours)

So to be a licensed structural engineer in Washington State you must have the following minimum requirements: a. 10 years appropriate work experience b. take and pass 32 hours of examination

"Matt Whiting" wrote in message news:0Rlxe.534$ snipped-for-privacy@news1.epix.net...

Exactly. Not of much help to the OP, but that's the way to do it. I have just completed the rebuild of a total ground up rebuild of my home that was lost in a fire. The original home (50 yrs old) had a stick built roof and was considered to be in the premier neighborhood in the area at the time. The construction was what I would rate as average, although contractors who examined what was left said it was very well built. 2x6 outside walls, plaster walls, mahogany trim, etc. Attic access was through the garage. 2 X 8's on 16" centers spanning 24'! Most of the plaster on the garage ceiling was cracked due to sag. Didn't store too much other than christmas stuff and empty boxes. Still, just my weight (170lbs) you could feel the joists move. In the new house, I had the garage (increased to 35') area trussed for storage (the truss people like to call it a "bonus room"). Solid as rock! I can literally jump up and down and the floor/ceiling doesn't give a bit! So much for old vs. new construction. Could a free rafter roof be as solid? Sure, I have no doubt. Lot's more expensive lumber. The big bonus as far as I'm concerned with trusses is the future flexibility with floor plans. Want to move a wall? No problem. Most interior walls are non-load bearing so just knock 'em down and move 'em. As far as the "particle board" I-joists, I doubt a toilet over flowing once ( or even a dozen times) is going to dissolve them. And if you've got that bad of a water problem, you've got some serious problems! They got a bad rap early on, but the adhesives have vastly improved in the last ten years. A good analogy is the world of automobiles. Once upon a time, to build a solid car, you added more metal. Now, look at the most structurally solid cars. What do they use? Carbon fiber in honeycomb EPOXY matrix. Yeah, they're glued together! Try to field a formula one or indy car out of good old fashioned steel and see where you get. Technology marches on. If you use it wisely, you can build a very solid house. However, I am convinced after working early on in the design phase of my home that your typical GC doesn't give a hoot about quality. If you want a well built house (or anything else, for that matter) you're better off building it yourself. That's what I had to do.