You've hit the nail right on the head! A lot of "incomplete information" and/or incomplete communication (which I'll admit to being a part of, as well).
That slight of a pressure difference, eh? Now it's all beginning to make sense to me.
Yes, yes. I see it now.
This has most certainly done so for me. My questions are now finally satisified. I thank you very much, Paul.
Ken
Increased volume {like able to fill the bathtub up quicker, for example, is this right?} is one thing I definitely want out of all this. But since I've come to understand (after reading Paul's excellent post) that I can't get any *significant* pressure increase as a result of upsizing my lines, I couldn't help but anticipate what you're saying here about the valve having to be one that 's designed to accept the larger supply lines for these larger supply lines to be able to deliver on that.
Just the one that reduces/regulates the pressure for the entire household.
Thanks for this helpful info, Bob.
Ken
and thankyou God for plumbers, Amen.
kenny b
I hadn't mentioned it for simplicity's sake, but since you've brought this up, the idea of having multiple showerhead fixtures (actually, purchasing and installing one of those "super shower" systems) at some point in the near future, is also a consideration leading to my intentions here.
Wow! This is like a paradigm shift (so to speak) for me. Got any suggestions as to what to search for in order to learn more about this? Apparently production housing contractors in my part of the country are either all helplessly second rate, or are colluding to 'pull the wool' over consumers' eyes in this matter. (Based on my long-held displeasure due to a lack of attention to quality _in general_ from these "slap-n-tack" outfits, I'm personally inclined to believe the latter.)
Ken
And that would be fine if it wasn't for the fact that (in Canada, at least), unless one's a general contractor, a good plumber can be hard to find.
Ken
Yes, Paul's post was factual. But he's not a plumber. A plumber knows that it is unlikely that you have a 100' of 1/2" pipe supplying a tub valve or any other kind of valve. Making his 3 pound pressure drop a mathematical improbability. A typical house will have 3/4" or 1" coming from the meter or supply source and enter the house in those sizes and not reduce until the last 2 or 3 fixtures. Because those fixtures are typically a bathroom there will "generally" be 3/4" within 20' to 30' of the farthest bathroom in a typical house. The point being here that increasing the pipe size would result in possibly a 1 pound pressure drop increase or less. Probably less. Whatever actual flow rate is gained would not be humanly detectable. Because the ports in a typical valve are generally only between 1/8" to 1/4" to allow the water to flow through, you can upsize until you turn green and the weakest link will always be the valve. If you have good pressure everywhere else in the house then you need to take apart the offending valve and make sure it has no obstructions. Re-piping is a waste of time, money, and effort unless you know the piping system is obstructed with some sort of build up.
You may want to have a professional look at this. It would be my number 1 suspect.
Bob Wheatley
Yes, I am in the US. As for my wise ass comments, you asked for opinions and I offered one. If you don't want to hear what I have to say, don't ask. No, I'm not a bully at hte keyboard, this is wha I am in real life.
OK, this means there is either a PRV (pressure reducing valve) or s ome sort of restriction. Unless you check actual pressure with a gauge, you can't be
100% sure of anything in finding hte problem.By the same token, I also know that all the
For that to occur, the flow rate has to be very high. 1/2" is a common size feed in residential use and at the fixture 3/8" or 1/4" is common. The 1/2" feeding them is very adequate.
In my last three houses, and in the two bildings I mantain, the inside pressure is the same as the street, except for locations wehre we've intellionally reduced it. Since on of the building sis our prductin facility, we have a fewgausges so we can monitor this. We also have a self contained recirculation system that we maintain at 80 psi with pumps.
No, this is where you are getting confused.
It still comes back to flow. Increasing the pipe diameter is not going to increase the pressure if the pipes are restricted in any way or if the flow is not controlled. Take a look at your garden hose. If you have an open end, turn the water on full flow, the water may come out at about 3 feet from the end of the hose. Put a nozzle on the end. Now, you have the same pressure in the hose as before, but with a restriction in the tip, you can shoot out a stream for maybe 20 feet. Note that the open hose will, though, fill a bucket much faster.
This takes us full circle back to my original suggestion that you may get more satisfaction in your shower by changing the head, not the pipes feeding it.
Canada huh!
There's an old retired fellow up in the Falls area (american side), I here he works for "lap dances at mints".
kenny b
Ken wrote:
Canada huh!
There's an old retired fellow up in the Falls area (american side), I hear he works for "lap dances" at mints.
kenny b
"Bob Wheatley" wrote
Maybe that's the reason why he was able to see the problem I was having integrating what I had read (about pipe diameter affecting pressure) with what I was merely "being told" in black-and-white terms as being otherwise (without explanation or discussion). The plumbers were completely silent in response to my implied requests for help in reconciling what they were telling me, with what I had read and recalled for them, such as, "The plumber and the plumbing designer rely on the internal diameter of the water delivery pipes to control water pressure" (Bob Vila). By giving me the raw, not paternalistically oversimplified, theoretical information [i.e not merely what the 'doctors' judged to be all that the little 'patient' need concern himself with] Paul was able to help me make logical sense of what I was "being told" with respect with what I had previously read.
I think Paul's explanation made this quite apparent.
It was to clarify specifically just this question that I posted my query here in the first place.
Was it not you who said that larger pipes will nonetheless deliver greater volume (providing the corresponding capacity valves, etc.)?
Yes, that is the industry standard here in Canada too (for houses). But I've long noticed in commercial buildings (like the hospital where I work) they have 1" pipes leading directly to things like toilets. These toilets (without a tank) flush prodigious amounts of water in just a second or two. Unless there is more to these systems than meets my eye, it would appear to me that larger diameter pipes do allow more water to get through quicker.
Being strapped with paying on a huge mortgage (huge only because entry level property values are staggeringly high here in Vancouver) while earning only a very modest income, I just can't afford to hire a reputable plumber for anything that isn't an emergency. So I have little choice but to just try my best at being as handy and knowledgeable a 'jack-of-all-trades' as I can be in responding to my house's needs.
Ken
Static pressure is no more important than the relative humidity when it comes to taking a shower. Who cares?
And thus less pressure drop.
Agreed
Which is the condition when actually using your plumbing.
The above is totally misleading. The only pressure that is relevant to the OP is during flow, so that if you wanted to stay relevant then you should of said.
"The pressure can be increased by larger pipes"
Hi, You just say pressure is on the low side. My house has regulator and gauge at the water main entry point. It's always more or less 60 psi. I can raise it higher if I want to.
Hmmm, Ever thought about water conservation?
Static - no residual - yes
kenny b
No, it can not. Restrictions are removed, but pressure is not increased, just decreased less.
Think about that for a minute and once you know the difference, you can cure the problems easier. Along the same lines, can you make something colder? No. You can, however, remove heat. The physical differences is of the utmost importance when dealing with changing pressures or temperatures. Unless you know what characteristics are the ones affecting your situation, it is a crap shoot to find a cure.
Bigger pipes do not make more pressure. This is not my opinion, this is the laws of physics. I didn't write them, but we all must abide by them.
WHY? I don't live some place where fresh water is not naturally abundant (such as Southern California, a natural desert, where the water conservation movement started and where it only belongs). Sorry if I'm coming across as rude here... This isn't personal. My sentiments here are political. Living in Vancouver, one of the most precipitation inundated areas of the world (where we consider ourselves lucky to get just a one day break from our normal soggy wet weather), the daily bombardment by, oh so "politically correct" and fashionable, water conservation propaganda gets a little annoying.
Ken
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Oh my! So you really weren't just trying to be a wise ass in your reponse to my original post after all! You really do believe what you so clearly misrepresent here as having been suggested!
Ya think?
Ken
"The emperor has no clothes..." -Hans Christian Andersen
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Oh my! So you really weren't just trying to be a wise ass in your reponse to my original post after all! You really do believe what you so clearly misrepresent here as having been suggested!
Ya think?
Ken
"The emperor has no clothes..." -Hans Christian Andersen
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