New gas furnace/AC recommendations?

But here's the problem. You claimed that slowing down a blower doesn't necessarily reduce the air flow. If you were taking about the pathological case where the blower can't move air because it's cavitating, they you should have pointed that out. Because if that's the case, there is a problem that needs to be fixed with the system that has nothing to do with an ECM vs conventional motor. To do otherwise is just to spread FUD.

Who said anyone was screwing around with anything? In the current discussion, all I saw was Home Guy asking some very relevant questions about ECM motors, including those installed in modern furnaces at the factory.

So then Home Guy's point remains valid. Apparently the motor can't know how much air is actually flowing. Sounds more and more like it's just a multi- speed motor that will be more efficient in most applications, ie those with typical or better ducting. In the typical install, that equates to using 20% less energy. Now, if we don't intend to run our blower 24/7, instead using it only when actually heating or cooling, how much will that amount to?

The question of course remains if cost is the only issue, with typical use, will you save enough in electricity to recover the cost? I'm looking at quotes where it's $1000 more for a 95%efficiency furnace with a two stage burner and variable speed ECM blower, compared to one without those features. Clearly all that cost isn't due to the blower but it comes with it, without choice. Combine that with the exposure to increased repair cost for the ECM and drive electronics and I'm not sure of the value proposition.

If you have issues other than saving energy that the variable speed drive will help with then it's another story. But for me, I don't see that extra value.

Around here, NJ/NYC area, I'd say the majority are not. My house isn't. And I see plenty of new construction where they have dual zone systems, putting one furnace in an unfinished basement, the other in the attic, which is even worse if you keep air moving 24/7.

Also, not one person that's hawking the wonders of variable speed blowers even mentions the above points. It's obvious I don't have a finished basement and not one contractor said a word about it. All of them are spouting mostly what we call marketing BS. Like the variable speed blower in a 5 ton AC is gonna use the same electricity as a 40W bulb. That the furnace which is still rated at

95% AFUE, just like the single stage, is now going to be way more efficient. Both of those are fiction. There's some truth that the furnace will be slightly more efficient when firing at 70%, but from physics and what I've been able to gather, it's a small percentage, a couple percent at best. And around here, it's gonna be firing at 70% in the Fall and Spring, when I use the smallest amount of energy anyway. So the gas usage difference is very slight.

You dismissed all the above on the basis that there are lots of finished basements, so the heat lost by constantly pumping hot air through cold basements, garages, attics etc isn't an issue. I say it is.

Explain to us how it's possible to send air through typical ducts in the outside walls of homes when it's 20 outside and not have them lose heat. Maybe you've re-written the laws of physics. Actually it sounds like you have, since you say the air coming out is room temp or better with the burner off. How is it possible to gain heat?

I can take the two stage complexity and the ECM out by simply choosing to not buy it and still get a 95% AFUE furnace. And as to repair cost, he has a valid issue. Are you going to claim that the replacement cost of the ECM motor or drive electronics is the same as a conventional motor? I've seen plenty of stories here over the years of people paying $800 to replace them. If a plain old motor goes, I can replace it for $100. Does that mean all the technology in today's furnaces isn't justified? No, but IMO you can't lump it all together. It's like buying a new car that has headlights that autmatically adjust and react to the cars pitch up or down at any given moment, to maintain them perfectly pointed evenly ahead. A nifty feature? Yes. But when that system goes out, it sure isn't gonna cost the same to fix as a conventional headlamp system.

Reply to
trader4
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Mr. Snyder appears to have painted himself into a corner over the finer details of the operation of ECM motors and seems to just want to walk away from this conversation instead of admitting he's wrong or mis-informed.

There are several nation-wide HVAC retailers with websites listing prices for furnaces. I was looking at one a few days ago, and they listed various Goodman furnaces with various efficiences (from non-condensing to condensing, etc) and the price for the furnaces ranged from $750 to $1500 if I remember correctly.

Have a look at these retailers / wholesalers:

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See if the furnaces you've been quoted on are carried on any of the above sites to get an idea of just how much your local contractor is over-charging you for the hardware.

I have a hunch that just like roofer's who over-charge you for the shingles, you'll pay a 50% premium for the hardware when you buy an entire package (furnace + installation) from a local contractor.

Your $1000 difference in the cost of a furnace with and without 95% /

2-stage / ECM is insane. Most 90+ furnaces seem to cost around $1000 judging by what I see on those sites.

See what your contractors say about just installing the furnace that you buy on-line. See if they balk and weazel their way out of doing that.

Your point about running the fan 24/7 is lost on a lot of people.

Your house loses heat through the walls, windows, and ceiling. Doesn't matter how much you insulate - the walls, windows, doors and ceiling are the containment envelope for the heat in your house. You're not going to loose heat through the wires or the plumbing.

And it's not just the basement walls (that's a red herring).

By running your fan 24/7, you're constantly forcing interior air to pass against the walls, ceiling, windows and doors, where the air will do it's best to either pick up heat (in the summer) or dump heat (in the winter) against those surfaces and tranfer heat to (or from) the outside. It's in the winter that this heat transfer is particularly of interested to us.

What you want is to achieve a still-air condition where there is no air motion inside your house. This condition will result in the least amount of heat being drawn off the interior objects (furnature, interior walls, floors, etc) and deposited against your exterior walls, windows, doors, etc. But with a forced-air system, you have no choice but to move air around and cause a breeze.

So while running a furnace 24/7 with the furnace dumping exactly as much heat into the house as the house is losing to the outside is (in theory) the most efficient way to operate, the very act of moving the air around inside your house is contributing to heat loss to the outside world. So it's probably the case that a furnace duty cycle less than 100% is more efficient at heating your house while conserving interior heat at the same time. I'm thinking more like 70% is probably where you want to be, and certainly to NOT run your fan at any time when your furnace is not on.

Reply to
Home Guy

Legitmate contractors will not install *ANY* equipment that the customer has purchased off the internet for 2 reasons.....

1) Manufacturers warranty is null and void for any and all equipment purchased off the internet. 2) Legitmate contractors cannot and will not assume *ANY* liability for said equipment.

I charge what I do, because thats what it takes to keep my companys doors open, and still make a small profit after all of the costs, expenses, salaries, and taxes are paid. Here's a hint..... "The bitter taste of a poor quality installation will linger far longer than the initial sweetness of a low price."

Reply to
Steve

The finest equipment in the world is worthless if installed improperly. I'm sure you've come across heartbreaking installations of expensive systems that some hack put in and you have to break the bad news to a very nice customer.

TDD

Reply to
The Daring Dufas

The especially bad (dangerous) ones, I take pics of and forward to the city code enforcement and/or county planners office, and the state fire marshal.

Reply to
Steve

I was at a deposition last week where the defendants attorney was quizzing me about my training and where I got it. Nobody can supply the training I've had. I started out repairing window units in the early 1970's and self taught from there. My friends with all the wallpaper come to me and ask me about this and that because I've usually seen it. "Experience is a fools best teacher." Emerson. :-)

TDD

Reply to
The Daring Dufas

Steve used improper usenet style by unnecessarily full-quoting:

Where exactly is that written? Nice to see how you try to spread FUD over this.

The manufacturer has no way to know exactly how a given furnace was purchased, and it doesn't matter in any way, shape or form how a new-in-box furnace makes it's way through the wholesale-retail chain to the customer's basement.

Once there, installation by a "professional" contractor should satisfy all the critera for the factory warranty.

The customer would not ask the contractor to assume any liability for the equipment, only for the proper installation of said equipment, which should be totally acceptible to you since you are installing perfectly good equipment, perhaps exactly the same equipment that you sell to other customers.

Your cost structure is your problem.

It must be emarassing to you when a customer finds out how much you over-charge him for the same furnace that he can buy himself from these various vendors.

I'm separating purchase of the equipment from it's installation.

There is no rational argument that you can make against a home-owner sourcing and purchasing the furnace for himself, and then contracting you or some other HVAC company to install it.

Because at the end of the day, that's all you guys really do - installation. You don't make the furnace, it just passes through your hands on the way from the factory to the customer. So don't give us any bull-crap that the customer *has to* buy it from you. That's a very unprofessional way to operate.

Reply to
Home Guy

The Daring Dufas used poor usenet style by improperly full-quoting:

You totally missed the point.

What's wrong with the customer buying a new furnace through one of those national retailers / wholesalers, and then contracting a local HVAC company to install it?

How would that result in improper installation?

The customer would save the 50%+ markup charged by the local HVAC company for the furnace.

Reply to
Home Guy

How about 'the warranty states that if installation is not done by a RECOGNISED contractor, there IS NO WARRANTY.' And no contractor who is 'recognised' ( IE set up and registered as a factory-authorized dealer or warranty contractor ) by a given brand is going to TOUCH your self-bought equipment.

Now, sure, Pedro's Heating and Air will be glad to put it in for you. When you try a warranty claim, you will find that you have no warranty.

When you buy something at Best Buy, and it's defective, do you expect Best Buy to stand behind it ? They didnt' make it, you know.

You idiot.

Reply to
.p.jm.

Asshole - you really think you get 'wholesale price' like that ? Yeh, you probably think if a car dealership sells you a car at '$ 100 below invoice', they lost money on the deal. after all, they showed you on the invoice 'what they paid for it', right ?

Anyone who is actualy in the business laughs out loud at the 'Internet wholesale' prices for any parts or equipment. It's double what they pay at the local supply house.

Reply to
.p.jm.

Post a link to an example warranty, where it states exactly that.

So if you are a recognized seller and installer of Trane, and if I buy a new Trane furnace on my own, how can you say that you're not "authorized" to install it?

Pedro will handle the warranty work for me, because he wants the business.

Pedro will handle the warranty work for me, because he wants the business.

Besides, I thought these new furnaces were sooooo much more reliable than my POS 36 year-old furnace - right?

After all, according to you blow-hardts, these new furnaces with their electronics sensors and ECM motors are bullet-proof - right?

Looks like I touched a nerve with all you HVAC installer crooks.

Reply to
Home Guy

I found the "wholesale" prices to be very amusing. :-)

TDD

Reply to
The Daring Dufas

No HVAC company will guarantee any equipment they don't supply. Me and my friends have installed used or new equipment supplied by a customer, usually commercial, with the explicit understand that nothing is under any warranty. You're not going to get any high end name brand equipment unless you go through an authorized dealer. If you do, the manufacturer is going to take action against whoever supplied the equipment when they find out. Your savings are an illusion.

TDD

Reply to
The Daring Dufas

Sometimes that is true.

HOWEVER - I find quite often I could buy stuff over the internet for less than I pay my wholesale suppliers. Sometimes significantly less - but being "grey market" there is no support and often no accessible warranty.

Reply to
clare

Then it's not really apples-to-apples.

Reply to
.p.jm.

Dunno... I took an A/C compressor I bought off the net to my local Chevrolet dealership. The service department was happy to install it, vacuum the system, and recharge everthing. Doing so converted a $700 job to a $250 one.

That was four years ago. The A/C still works swell.

You hang with the wrong crowd. My son has a Guatamalan neighbor. The neighbor works for an A/C contractor and moonlights on the side. The neighbor, in turn, knows a fellow countryman who makes a market in used equipment.

So, after Hurricane Yikes destroyed my condensing unit, I told my son, who visited with his neighbor, and two nights later I had a two-year old, two-and-a-half ton, condensing unit installed, charged, and working admirably for seven hundred bucks.

As to "guarantees," my son's neighbor knows I know where he lives and he also knows I carry a gun.

Reply to
HeyBub

Yeh, and someone else two blocks over was missing theirs :-)

Reply to
.p.jm.

So, who wants high end name brand eqt? I've had 36 years of experience with Ruud and all I've had fail is one AC compressor. I replaced just the compressor, not the whole condenser. And I installed a hard-start kit on my current system that is still running after 26 years. Consumer Reports survey had Ruud/Rheem as lower incidents of repairs than Trane or Carrier, though they said statistically the differences were not meaningful. And you can buy Rheem/Ruud online.

Not saying that I would do that or advise doing it, just that it can be done.

Reply to
trader4

Same situation with buyng a furnace on the internet.

Identical product, significant price reduction, bur lotsa gotchas.

Reply to
clare

What about shipping charges? Some of that stuff is quite heavy. I've looked into buying some items over the net but the shipping eats up any savings in purchase price.

TDD

Reply to
The Daring Dufas

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