I was at a deposition last week where the defendants attorney was
quizzing me about my training and where I got it. Nobody can supply
the training I've had. I started out repairing window units in the
early 1970's and self taught from there. My friends with all the
wallpaper come to me and ask me about this and that because I've
usually seen it. "Experience is a fools best teacher." Emerson. :-)
The Daring Dufas used poor usenet style by improperly full-quoting:
You totally missed the point.
What's wrong with the customer buying a new furnace through one of those
national retailers / wholesalers, and then contracting a local HVAC
company to install it?
How would that result in improper installation?
The customer would save the 50%+ markup charged by the local HVAC
company for the furnace.
Asshole - you really think you get 'wholesale price' like
that ? Yeh, you probably think if a car dealership sells you a car at
'$ 100 below invoice', they lost money on the deal. after all, they
showed you on the invoice 'what they paid for it', right ?
Anyone who is actualy in the business laughs out loud at the
'Internet wholesale' prices for any parts or equipment. It's double
what they pay at the local supply house.
Click here every day to feed an animal that needs you today !!!
Not every HVAC company or HVAC tech is a crook. The crooks are well
known to the repair guys and are hated. The dishonest service people
give everyone a bad name and the good honest service techs get very
upset when hearing about what one of the crooks pulled off. I spent
a couple of hours at a deposition involving a lawsuit against one of
the crooks who vandalized the AC belonging to the elderly mother of
a friend of mine. Those crooks shorted out her compressor and told
her she needed $5,500.00 worth of new system. I wasn't about to let that
happen. The crooks called her out of the phone book with a
$69.95 spring tuneup special which is something a lot of less than
altruistic service companies do to get their foot in the door to take
advantage of the less than knowledgeable customers, especially the
elderly. You can usually spot the crooks by their shiny new trucks.
On Wed, 15 Dec 2010 09:27:48 -0500, .p.jm.@see_my_sig_for_address.com
Sometimes that is true.
HOWEVER - I find quite often I could buy stuff over the internet for
less than I pay my wholesale suppliers. Sometimes significantly less -
but being "grey market" there is no support and often no accessible
UPS ground is ridiculously cheap.
If a company like TireRack can sell tires mail-order (where the typical
order weighs at least 100 lbs for 4 tires) then I can see how furnaces
can be shipped cheap as well.
I've seen good prices on compressors but they're very heavy and the
cost of shipping made it cost the same or more than what I can get it
for at the supply house. The same supply house where I can return a
defective unit and get it replaced right now. :-)
On Wed, 15 Dec 2010 17:30:48 -0600, The Daring Dufas
In my business the hard to get stuff (and stuff I could save a bundle
on) is generally small and light making the shipping pretty reasonable
unless it comes UPS from the USA - where the brokerage kills ya.
On Wed, 15 Dec 2010 18:17:20 -0500, firstname.lastname@example.org wrote:
OK - I've got some numbers.
I dug out the handy Amprobe and checked the current draw on my
Tempstar ntv6050fb furnace.
On low speed circulate it is drawing .21 amps at 116 volts AC.
When it calls for heat and the Eductor fan is on high, and the hot
plate ignitor is on, it draws just over 2.2 amps. When the gas lights
and the ignitor shuts down, it draws 2.0 amps, and with the furnace
running normally, the unit draws all of 1.5 amps. Thats about 175 VA.
Yesterday the furnace ran 6 hours and 17 minutes, and so far today 4
hour and 12 minutes. Yesterday was a pretty cold and windy day.
If it runs 6.25 hours a day at 175.3 va, that is just a hair ovr 1kWh
per day, and the low speed blower, running the other 17.75 hours at 34
va, consumes another .6 kWh.
IF the furnace cycles 20 times (I have not counted, but I figured I'd
guess on the high side) the eductor and ignitor, running aprox 1.5
minute for each cycle, draw another .7 amps,for another 0.3 ah or .035
kWh per day - for a total of something just over 1.6 kWh per
day.(48kWh per month)
At 7.5 cents per kWh for the first 1000 per month, and 8.5 cents per
kWh from there up, over and above the roughly $16 per month
"distribution fee" from Waterloo North Hydro, if I didn't use
electricity for anything else to spread the distribution fee over, it
would cost me about $20 a month to run the furnace.
Since I DO use electricity for other things, the incremental cost to
run the furnace is only something like $4 per month for the
A half HP PSC motor, running only with the furnace calling for heat,at
475 va, would consume 93 kWh of power, costing $6.98 a month, just
for the blower.
If the blower on low speed circulate keeps the temperature more even
and the furnace does not need to run as much because of that, the cost
for the single speed PSC motor would be higher - possibly approaching
$10 per month.
On the other hand, if, as some have theorized, circulating the air
looses heat to the outside and/or basement, NOT running the low speed
circulating fan would cause the furnace to run less - saving not only
the .6kWh, but also some furnace run time.
Anyone with a PSC blower motor on a conventional standing pilot light
furnace have an Amprobe and want to check the blower current draw for
a sanity check?
I'm just guessing 475 Va running current.
The low speed blower is set at 600 cfm with a .1" static (default)
and the heat blower speed is also at default, 0.20" static, with the
AC set to 900 cfm at 0.50" static, default for a 2 ton AC according to
the installers notes. The default for heat was set by the specified
heat rise across the heat exchanger
On 12/15/2010 8:14 AM, The Home Guy who is clueless about HVAC wrote:
No HVAC company will guarantee any equipment they don't supply. Me and
my friends have installed used or new equipment supplied by a customer,
usually commercial, with the explicit understand that nothing is under
any warranty. You're not going to get any high end name brand equipment
unless you go through an authorized dealer. If you do, the manufacturer
is going to take action against whoever supplied the equipment when they
find out. Your savings are an illusion.
So, who wants high end name brand eqt? I've had 36 years of
Ruud and all I've had fail is one AC compressor. I replaced just the
the whole condenser. And I installed a hard-start kit on my current
system that is still
running after 26 years. Consumer Reports survey had Ruud/Rheem as
of repairs than Trane or Carrier, though they said statistically the
differences were not
meaningful. And you can buy Rheem/Ruud online.
Not saying that I would do that or advise doing it, just that it can
On 12/15/2010 4:43 PM, email@example.com wrote:
If you can work on your own stuff, go for it. I do more repair than
replace myself. A lot of HVAC companies will replace a whole condensing
unit rather than the blown compressor because it's easier and they make
the same profit quicker. I had an old fellow I know call me when another
company came out to his house and told him his old Carrier condensing
unit had to be replaced. The only thing wrong was a burned out condenser
fan motor. The fan motor was a two speed which slowed down at night when
the outside temperature dropped making the unit very quiet. There was
also a sound insulating cover over the compressor. It was the most
expensive unit produced by Carrier when he bought it years before and it
was very well made. It had stainless steel hardware and there was no
rust on it anywhere. It had a factory sight glass and liquid line dryer.
It had an anti short cycle timer and both high and low pressure switches
tied into the control circuitry to protect the compressor. I told the
fellow not to let anyone tell him he needed a new unit when that one
could be repaired because it was built better than most of the new units
I'd seen. Simple maintenance can keep an HVAC system running trouble
free for a long time, especially if it was properly installed and setup.
Steve used improper usenet style by unnecessarily full-quoting:
Where exactly is that written? Nice to see how you try to spread FUD
The manufacturer has no way to know exactly how a given furnace was
purchased, and it doesn't matter in any way, shape or form how a
new-in-box furnace makes it's way through the wholesale-retail chain to
the customer's basement.
Once there, installation by a "professional" contractor should satisfy
all the critera for the factory warranty.
The customer would not ask the contractor to assume any liability for
the equipment, only for the proper installation of said equipment, which
should be totally acceptible to you since you are installing perfectly
good equipment, perhaps exactly the same equipment that you sell to
Your cost structure is your problem.
It must be emarassing to you when a customer finds out how much you
over-charge him for the same furnace that he can buy himself from these
I'm separating purchase of the equipment from it's installation.
There is no rational argument that you can make against a home-owner
sourcing and purchasing the furnace for himself, and then contracting
you or some other HVAC company to install it.
Because at the end of the day, that's all you guys really do -
installation. You don't make the furnace, it just passes through your
hands on the way from the factory to the customer. So don't give us any
bull-crap that the customer *has to* buy it from you. That's a very
unprofessional way to operate.
How about 'the warranty states that if installation is not
done by a RECOGNISED contractor, there IS NO WARRANTY.' And no
contractor who is 'recognised' ( IE set up and registered as a
factory-authorized dealer or warranty contractor ) by a given brand is
going to TOUCH your self-bought equipment.
Now, sure, Pedro's Heating and Air will be glad to put it in
for you. When you try a warranty claim, you will find that you have
When you buy something at Best Buy, and it's defective, do you
expect Best Buy to stand behind it ? They didnt' make it, you know.
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