On 2/13/2012 8:02 AM, Nate Nagel wrote: ...
This house originally had pushbutton switches something like
Unfortunately, Dad didn't even keep them afaict when the folks updated the house in the late '70s/early 80s. :(
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I'm not sure why you plan to do all of this work. You can always try to sell the house "As is". If you want to get the most money from the sale, talk to a real estate agent or two from the area and they will tell you exactly what to do to increase value and salability.
I have heard that certain lenders such as HUD and FHA have certain requirements before they will extend a loan, but I would wait until you know all of the facts.
I don't think so. Are there even 20A plugs without a ground pin? The other question is whether it would fit in the flat dimension.
Nope. There did used to be 120V plugs where both prongs were flat. They would fit in a T-slot.
The "T-slot" receptacle goes back a long time.
Going back even further, some loads, like maybe an early vacuum cleaner, had a "plug" that was like an Edison-base light bulb. The screw shell could rotate freely until the plug bottomed. It was used early when there were lights but no receptacles. Then they made matching "receptacles" that were like an Edison socket. There was a flap that covered the opening when not in use.
For a ground wire it depends on what the code says at the time the house was wired. And also depends on the allowed practice in that jurisdiction at that time.
The mechanical means is typically by twisting the wires. Before there were wire nuts, BX (for instance) wires would be twisted, fluxed, and pointed down. The electrician would come around with a solder pot and raise the pot to dip the connection. A fastener is not required. I have only seen one of these connections that was bad.
There didn't used to be wire nuts; soldering was common. Ground wires may or may not be compliant. If the ground connection is not disturbed (for instance using self-grounding receptacles) I doubt an inspector would care in any case.
(The linked thread has a familiar figure.)
The thread is 2004. The link to the Leviton T-slot does not work now. If I remember right, the last thread on T-slots here, replacements were available but were not UL listed.
If I'm reading your description correctly, the grounds are twisted and soldered together with one of the wires continuing past that splice to be screwed to the metal box. If this is the case I would remove that screwed connection, twist on the new pigtail to the new receptacle and top it off with one of the Ideal pre-fab ground wirenut pigtail assemblies that has a green wire nut with a green wire coming out of the end of the wire nut and terminating to a spade lug terminal which you would screw to the box. I've been using those pigtail assemblies extensively since I found them and really like them.
GFCIs in the kitchen, bathroom, basement and garage as applicable, and those should be easy since you have grounded wiring already.
On those pushbutton switches, I'd be inclined to replace them all with regular toggle or Decora style switches which will look more "up to date" to potential buyers and barely knowledgeable home inspectors. I suspect that the pushbutton switches and plates could fetch a few $ on ebay from someone doing a restoration type project.
That sounds nice but come back to bite you bad:(
So the sellers do little, and a ready buyer shows up and they hire a home inspector.
who flags all the outlets, lack of grounds no GFCI etc.
Where before sale DIY could of taken care of all this. now their is a buyer and he will nearly always demand all work be done by registered electricians etc.
the costs to fix stuff will skyrocket and the registered contractors will find new issues. and more added costs.
in the case a buyer finds defencies its far better to get estimates and agree to deduct it off sales price.
otherwise registered contractors will find more issues and more added costs:(
sorry to muddy the water even more......
and to the OP you work on the home and something bad happens to the house owners may try to lay blame on anyone convenient... you. even if it wasnt your fault.........
you have been warned!
I've seen discussions of that before, some argue that twisting the wires together provides the mechanical connection, some argue otherwise. Or to sidestep the whole issue I could just put a yellow wire nut over every soldered connection? The ground connection in the box that I looked at was never taped.
nate
I guess I'm just looking at it from the perspective of if I were the prospective home buyer, ungrounded receps would be a sign that the wiring needed to be upgraded and that would make me make a much lower offer on the place if I were even to do so. In this particular instance the wiring does not need to be replaced, so it's just a matter of replacing the devices and getting rid of the issue entirely; for what it'd cost *my* opinion is it'd be worth it; as to whether it'd be worth it to any particular interested party, who can say?
nate
On 2/13/2012 1:58 PM, bud-- wrote: ...
That's usta' be.
I'd not be at all surprised that an inspection would have an issue w/ soldered ground wires now if they're disturbed at all. If completely undisturbed they would have good chance of getting by, I'd agree.
The point was to simply to make OP aware of current reqm'ts...
Hah, ain't that the truth.
Just did that dance with my own house last year. Home inspector found stuff, some of it reasonable some of it not. Some of it just plain wrong, but understandable why he flagged it and could be explained away. Difficulty: the buyer's realtor was a coworker's wife, so nobody wanted me (the only person who could speak intelligently about the issues) in direct contact with anyone on the buyer's side.
I eventually got them to agree, by passing notes from me to realtor to realtor to buyer, to strike the "licensed contractor" verbiage, make the necessary repairs myself, and have a reinspection w/ home inspector in lieu of presenting contractor's receipts, at my expense (reasonable.) Come to find out the inspector was a fairly reasonable sort, and had we just been allowed to discuss the issues up front I wouldn't have been nearly so stressed out and worked up. But c'est la vie in the modern age.
nate
On 2/13/2012 3:45 PM, Nate Nagel wrote: ...
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The latter would be the easy way out that I think would be legal; I've never had the situation arise directly.
I think what you can get by with will depend on the inspector and the circumstance. I know the reqm't in old code was that if there is any tension on the wire, the splice must mechanically be as strong as the original wire w/o the solder. Certainly simply a twisted end doesn't come close to that level. I don't have an old copy of the Code at hand to conveniently be able to see what it says about a simply in-box connection of this type for the mechanical strength reqm't if there is/was any distinction made between where the connection was and what was required.
The ground connection doesn't require insulation; you could run bare wire just as well for the ground pigtail.
If you're looking to renovate a house to raise it's value, I could write a huge list of items that would help. If the intent is to remove issues that may prevent a sale, I think the prudent thing to do, is find out what those issues might be. "Home inspectors" have no power or authority over anything or anyone, except maybe for you. They are hired by a perspective buyer to find problems and violations with the building. If the building has a valid C/O, then all the wiring, regardless of type or age, unless it's been damaged or improperly altered, is compliant. There is no violation in having fuses, non grounding outlets, no gfci outlets, no afci outlets, or anything else required in current code.
no but you may be unable to get homeowners insurance.
and adding GFCIs etc you may find the existing boxes are too small. that makes for a bigger job
I agree 100%. The work original to the house actually looks very good. It doesn't look like anything ever got wet or even really dirty - the house as a whole is very clean and other than style you couldn't guess the age of much of anything in there from condition. I personally wouldn't touch the fuse box unless/until I was ready to upgrade the service and I'm not sure that that's necessary. (100A now. don't know what size the service wires are; they may be OK for 150.) For *me personally* I would want grounding receps everywhere though; your average person these days has too many electronics to not have that. Since it's an easy "fix" it might be a good pre-emptive strike to do them now. If I hadn't found the soldered splice we wouldn't even be having this discussion, I'd know exactly what to do. And even so I think I can make this work. What I'll do is -
pull the old receps, and at each box, put a yellow wire nut over the soldered splice to sidestep any future concerns about the "mechanical connection" verbiage
then take another wire nut, remove the pigtail from the ground screw, snip off the loop, then splice a longer piece of bare wire onto it. I will then wrap the bare wire around the ground screw and have the wire continue on to the ground screw of the device.
That should work, yes?
My initial thought was to lay a wire alongside the soldered splice and wire nut over the whole package, but I have concerns about the years of oxidation of the solder. If it appears that in some locations snipping off the solder joint would not shorten the wires enough to make a noncompliant installation, I would certainly do that to make life easier.
nate
You are the only one who can't get homeowners insurance. My point is that if the perspective buyer wants to install gfci outlets or make any other improvements, it's his business. The seller doesn't have to worry about the size that the boxes may be.
Nec 110.14 (B) Electrical connections (Splices) " Soldered splices shall first be spliced or joined so as to be mechanically and electrically secure without solder and then be soldered.
I've seen lots of those old "T" slot receptacles years ago. The only receptacles in the first house my parents bought were that style. I've seen numerous old appliances with the "wacky" plugs on them - both tandem and T, that were definitely 115 volt - and definitely not 20 amp.
They (the double T-slot outlets) were available until the early sixties. A variation was the nurpolian quad - it had parallel and tandem blade outlets together in one unit.
Getting homeowners insurance requires an electrical inpection if there is "any" K&T wiring, aluminum wiring, or less than 100 amp service. If the panel is a fused panel in good shape, it passes. If it is a breaker panel in questionable shape it very well may not. If aluminum wiring, it needs compliant devices (CoAlr, not the earlier Cu/Al) or approved transition pigtails. A little bit of unmollested K&T for lighting circuits only can also pass. Here in Ontario a licences electrician registered with the ESA can provide the inspection.
The house does NOT need to meet current code requirements as to AFCI and GFCI, nor the code requirements for separate and split outlets for kitchen counters etc to get insurance.
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