I am replacing a treated wood deck floor with a composite . The joist are sturdy
but full of nail holes from the treated decking. I would like to fill these
holes with a durable injectable filler to prevent water from causing more damage.
Silicone or caulking is not the answer, I'm looking for something that will
actually bond the wood surfaces together.
What "wood surfaces" do you want to bond together? It's a hole. Unless you
squeeze the joist really, really hard so that one side of the hole touches
the other, you can't "bond the wood surfaces together". All you can do is
fill the hole.
There are two options I can think of:
1. Use an acrylic caulk to fill the holes.
Most people are not aware of it, but acrylic plastics will allow
H2O in the form of humidity to pass through the plastic, but not liquid
water. That's because polymethyl methacrylate, which is what
"Plexiglas" is, can be though of as a long molecule scrunched up into a
ball. If you scrunch a wire into a ball, there will still be gaps
between the wire segments that would still allow a fine eough powder to
seep through that ball. It's the same with acrylic plastics, like
acrylic caulk. The gaps between the segments of acrylic molecules are
larger than the size of H2O molecules, but smaller than the distance
between H2O molecules in liquid water. So, individual H2O molecules
will pass through acrylic caulk, but liquid water won't. In this way,
filling the nail holes with acrylic caulk will keep the wood dry because
it will allow moisture in the wood to evaporate through the caulk, but
won't allow liquid water into the wood through the caulk.
2. Inject copper naphthenate wood end cut preservative into the holes.
Copper and zinc are both natural fungicides, just like boron, and
so copper naphthenate is used as an end cut preservative to treating the
cuts made in pressure treated lumber. Before covering your deck joists
with the composite decking, inject copper naphthenate into each nail
hole to fill it with end cut preservative. So, even if water does get
into those nail holes, the pre-existing copper will kill any wood rot
fungus that tries to feed on the wood there.
In any event, what I find works well for filling nail holes with either
caulk or wood preservative are the glue syringes sold by Lee Valley:
'Glue Syringes - Lee Valley Tools'
Acrylic caulk is a bit viscous for the blunt nose needle tips they
provide, so you have to squeeze pretty hard, but it can be done.
Copper naphthenate is not nearly as viscous, and could easily be
injected through these syringes to fill up the nail holes in your
If it were me, I would just fill each nail hole with copper naphthenate
end cut preservative and you'll never have wood rot starting at any of
those nail holes. I wouldn't even bother filling the holes with caulk
or anything else. Just fill the holes with end cut preservative, and
let the wood soak it up. And, for even more protection, fill the holes
with end cut preservative, wait for the wood to absorb it, and then fill
the holes again.
Man, THANK YOU for that.
For decades, I used Cuprinol #10 for wood. Then the Protect Them From
Themselves police decided it was a no no. I still have about a half gallon
that I had on hand, been using it very sparingly knowing that it wasn't
replaceable. Now you tell me about "end cut preservative" which is the same
as or close to Cuprinol #10.
Again, thank you.
> ;3105428']"nestork" firstname.lastname@example.org wrote in message
> (http://www.floridaloghouse.net )
Shepherd Chemicals makes copper naphthenate at an 8 percent
concentration. That's about 4 times as concentratred as your typical
copper naphthenate end cut preservative, with typically run about 2%
'Copper Naphthenate' (http://www.shepchem.com/Copper-Naphthenate.aspx )
Maybe contact them to find out where to buy their copper naphthenate in
> ;3105428']"nestork" email@example.com wrote in message
> (http://www.floridaloghouse.net )
You know, I did some digging, and I can't see any reason why you can't
make your own Cuprinol #10.
I did a search for an MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheet) for Cuprinol
#10, and I came across this web page from Jamestown Distributors who
used to sell the stuff:
'Cuprinol No. 10 Green Wood Preservative' (http://tinyurl.com/k43dxdj )
Scroll down the left side of the page to the blue tab labeled "MSDS
Under that blue tab will be a link entitled "MSDS Cuprinol #10 Green"
Click on that link to download an 82.8 KB PDF file entitled
Now that MSDS was prepared on March 31, 2007, when that product was
still being produced by the Cuprinol Group of Cleveland, Ohio.
The MSDS for Cuprinol #10 says it contains:
60 percent mineral spirits (CAS 64742-88-7)
14 percent paraffin oil (CAS 8012-95-1)
22 percent copper naphthenate (CAS 1338-02-09)
Those CAS numbers are Chemical Assay System numbers. Many chemicals go
by different names. For example, dimethyl ketone is more commonly
called "acetone". So, to avoid confusion in medical emergencies where a
baby has swallowed something in the cleaning cabinet, the CAS system
assigns a number to each chemical so that if you Google it's CAS number,
you'll find all it's different synonyms and aliases.
_Minerals_spirits_, as you probably know, is also called "paint
thinner", "White spirits" and "Stoddard solvent", and you can buy it in
any paint or hardware store. Home Depot should sell Mineral Spirits by
the quart or gallon. If you have the option to buy mineral spirits, or
paint thinner, buy the mineral spirits instead of paint thinner. As
soon as a company calls it "paint thinner" instead of mineral spirits,
it gives them the artistic license to put whatever else they want in
that they think might help thin paint, including turpentine. If they
put turpentine in the gallon jug they sell called "mineral spirits",
then the label would be wrong (cuz it contains turpentine) and that
would be false advertising.
_Paraffin_Oil_ is also called "mineral oil" and you can buy it in any
pharmacy or health food store. People drink it to help with
constipation. They also add fragrences to it and sell it as "Baby Oil"
which you can also buy at any pharmacy.
_Copper_Naphthenate_ is the active ingredient in wood preservatives
because of it's copper content. The problem was getting it in a high
concentration, which is why the Cupriol 10 worked well with it's 22
percent concentration of CN.
It turns out that copper naphthenate is sold in high concentrations
(of 38 percent or higher) to treat a hoof infection in horses called
"Thrush". This web page, for example, sells a treatment for Thrush that
contains 37.5 percent copper naphthenate. (The remaining 62.5 percent
would almost certainly be an innocuous carrier fluid like glycerine or
'Farnam - Your partner in horse care' (http://tinyurl.com/n7wm6fv )
I would check your local agricultural feed lots, veteranarians and
even horse stables to see who sells treatments for horse hoof Thrush,
and mix a bottle of that with a bottle of mineral oil and thin to a
paintable consistancy with mineral spirits.
So, the reason why your Cuprinol #10 worked so well was because of
it's very high concentration of Copper Naphthenate, but you can make
something just as effective any day of the week by diluting some horse
hoof treatment for Thrush down to 22 percent by diluting it with mineral
oil. According to my calculations, if your bottle of horse hoof
treatment is 37.5 percent CN, you would pour it into a pot, fill the
empty bottle 70 percent full of mineral oil, and add that to the pot.
Stir, and you have 1.7 bottles of Cuprinol 10.
Dilute with mineral spirits as desired to get the paintability you want.
All of the mineral spirits will evaporate from the wood anyhow, so it
doesn't matter how much you add. All that remains behind in the wood
will be the copper naphthenate.
I don't either and I'll be making some. Many thanks for your digging.
Actually, I rather like making my own potions. Most of it isn't rocket
science and its way cheaper to buy bulk chemicals and combine them yourself.
In order to keep my small stash of existing Cuprinol #19 for "gotta have"
times, I've been making my own Timbor/Boracare. Not cheap but way cheaper
than ready made; the cost is NP but the fact that the kill stuff leaches out
I'm looking forward to home made Cuprinol #10 :)
The reason I want an epoxy type filler for the holes is also to reinforce them.
When I install the new composite decking I want to be sure the screws for it
don't try to follow an existing hole.
I like the syringes from Lee Valley, I just need a bonding filler that is thin
enough to to inject.
Filling the hole from the bottom will eliminate any air pockets.
When replacing deck boards theres a real good chance some of the new holes will
find the old.
I want to not only protect from water but also provide a solid base.
On Sunday, August 11, 2013 12:45:02 PM UTC-4, marrvin wrote:
I think you're being excessive and creating a lot of work for nothing. If
it's just nail holes from the previous decking, the joists should be perfec
tly fine with screws to hold the new. I don't know of any pros that would
be epoxying hundreds of nail holes. Can't imagine how long that would take
and how hard or impossible it would be. When you pull a nail,
there isn't a big gaping hole ready to accept epoxy to fill it a couple
inches deep. It's small and hard to get anything into it, unless'
the wood is rotten and turned to crap. I can
see some point to putting a quick dab of caulk over them to prevent water
from going in. But I've never seen a pro do that either.
I agree that you are being overly anal - and you're getting that from an
overly anal guy.
Even if hitting the nail hole with the screws was actually a problem, what
are the odds of you hitting enough nail holes that it becomes a problem?
Easy solution: Use screws that are have a shaft that is wider and longer
than your nails. If you were (un)lucky enough to hit every nail hole dead
center, not only would the extra width allow the threads to bite, the extra
length would grab fresh wood.
Still worried about the water? Rip some PT wood or composite decking into 2
x 1/4“ strips, water proof the strips and cap all of your joists. That,
along screws that a larger than your nails, should cover both situations.
Better yet, turn your joists over if you are that worried about water
getting in the holes (which you shouldn't be). That would probably be
easier than trying to fill hundreds if not thousands of nail holes with a
little syringe. How much free time do you have anyway?
One of the best epoxies I know of for repairing wood is a product from
Loctite called E-20HP:
It comes in a dual cartridge that you mount in a dispensing gun that
costs about $40. Also, you have to use a mixing nozzle on the product,
and each of those costs about $1.
E-20HP is a "toughened" epoxy so that it doesn't cure as hard as a
regular epoxy. It cures to about the same hardness as wood so that it
can be drilled and screws driven into it just like wood, and it WILL
hold a screw just as well as a hard softwood like fir or pine. I use it
often when repairing stripped holes in wood, like you typically find
around the screws holding the latches and strike plates on wooden doors.
I won't use anything else to repair wood in my building cuz this stuff
makes repairing wood a breeze. You just put it where you need it, let
it cure, and then just treat it the same as if it were wood.
The problem, as you say is to fill the hole from the bottom up so as not
to get air trapped under the epoxy, and I can't see any good way of
Lee Valley also sells a repair epoxy for rotted wood. It consists of
two liquids which ARE thin enough to be able to inject into a hole using
a gluing syringe.
'Wood Restoration Kit - Lee Valley Tools'
The two tall bottles in that picture contain a liquid epoxy resin and a
hardener catalyst. You mix equal parts of them together and paint the
resulting liquid onto rotted wood. The epoxy is absorbed into the
rotted wood and hardens up, thereby restoring the strength of the rotted
wood so that it will hold a screw, say.
The liquid only has a 30 to 50 minute working time, depending on
temperature, and is quite expensive. You can buy larger quantities of
these same kind of repair epoxies at any marina, where they're used for
repairing wood rot on wooden boats, and I expect that you'd pay
proportionately less when buying a larger quantity, but it would still
be an expensive product to use.
Personally, I don't think that the screws going into the old nail holes
is not going to present any problems, or that not filling or covering
those nail holes is likely to lead to wood rot starting in any of those
old nail holes. Wood has to be really wet for a really long time before
it start to rot, and that's why wood rot problems aren't as common as
you'd expect. If you are concerned about the possibility of wood rot,
then filling those holes once with end cut preservative will be MORE
THAN ENOUGH to prevent wood rot from starting in any of those holes.
If it were me, I would just inject an end cut preservative into those
old nail holes, and not worry about screws going into them.
caulk all the holes then move to a different mounting system where you can see where the new screws are going.
like originally top mount, so caulk, treat everythng with whatever anti rot you want, then use side mount with composite deck boards
I wouldn't spend any time filling the old holes. I would cap the
existing joists with one of the following before fastening new decking:
tar paper strips (good), EPDM strips (better), a product like Grace
vycor flashing tape.
YOu might even like to watch this :
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