High Efficiency Furnace

[Stormin Mormon]

Maybe the boiler is in a locked room, and Ed doesn't have permission to work on it.

Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus

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There is (or was) nothing stopping you from adjusting the gas-valve (or thermostat) on the old boiler so that it too would have circulated lower-temperature water, giving you the same result.

I do exactly the same thing with the 36-year-old furnace in my house. I adjust the gas dial-valve in the furnace (the electrically-operated valve that has the pilot-light setting and the "ON" setting) and instead of turning it full-on, I adjust it much lower (just like you would on a barbeque). This has the effect of putting out less heat and results in a longer run-time for the fan - and better "comfort" in the house. Probably gives better efficiency as well (less waste heat going up the flue).

[harry]

urnace in a pantry off the kitchen. She wants to replace it with a high eff= iciency furnace, taking her from 80% efficiency to 95% efficiency,for the f= uel savings.

gh efficiency unit in that space but didn't give a good reason, at least no= t one that she understood. One complicating factor is that she thiks that t= here is just one chimney outlet on the roof which is shared by the two adjo= ining condos but I haven't actually seen the unit as it's hundreds of miles= away.

le to just remove the old unit and put in a new one unless the high efficie= ncy units are somehow larger, hotter or whatever.

Well in the UK gas appliances can't share a flue with other fuels, probably the same in the USA. If your friend wants a high efficiency heating system it will have to be wet (ie recirculating water and radiators). No chimney is necessary, most boilers are room sealed. ie air is drawn from outside into the boiler. Exhaust gases are just piped to the nearest point outside, usually the wall the boiler is fixed to via a plastic pipe.

Read up about it here:-

think your friend needs to speak to a more knowledgeable installer.

[Saul Bloom]

furnace takes a shit..

Good idea. How much does that cost per year?

[Ed Pawlowski]

Not exactly. If it was adjusted to a lower flame, it would be at that constant. This boiler adjusts according to need as determined by the outside temperature. What works at 40 degrees may not be adequate at

-10 degrees.

[Frank Stein]

It's my experience that many residential forced-air gas furnaces built / installed 25+ years ago are ridiculously over-sized, especially when you take into account upgrades to the home like better windows and draft sealing and more insulation.

Over the past few years, I've found that the throttling-down of my gas valve on my 36-year-old furnace has served me well over a wide range of outdoor temeratures (including the few nights we might see -5 f) - and it hasn't resulted in the phenomena that you suggest.

And even if it did, it's no problem to go down to the furnace and tweak the dial to give a stronger flame and leave it at that setting for the next month or so until it gets warmer outside.

[trader4]

furnace in a pantry off the kitchen. She wants to replace it with a high e= fficiency furnace, taking her from 80% efficiency to 95% efficiency,for the= fuel savings.

high efficiency unit in that space but didn't give a good reason, at least = not one that she understood. One complicating factor is that she thiks that= there is just one chimney outlet on the roof which is shared by the two ad= joining condos but I haven't actually seen the unit as it's hundreds of mil= es away.

able to just remove the old unit and put in a new one unless the high effic= iency units are somehow larger, hotter or whatever.

The datasheets for all the 93, 95%+ gas furnaces out there say that once again, harry doesn't know what he's talking about.

Just like they are with a high efficiency condensing gas furnace. Imagine that....

harry, you're the one who obviously needs to do the reading.

[Don Wiss]

I just renewed it. Let me pull it out.

It covers:

- furnace + split a/c unit ($340)

- hot water heater ($35)

- electronic air filter ($25)

- humidifier ($50, includes one pad per year)

- packaged a/c on the roof ($189)

But that does not add up. I pay $545 plus sales tax. Either I'm not being charged for the filter and humidifier, or there is a 15% discount for having so many items on the contract.

It includes two tuneups per year (heating in the Fall and a/c in the Spring). Plus a 15% repair discount. Diagnostic fees are half off. Five year warranty on all parts (replaced free) if I keep the contract in effect. No overtime charges. And I earn $50 in reward dollars each year (up to $500) that I can apply towards the purchase of new heating and cooling equipment.

Don.

(e-mail link at home page bottom).

[dpb]

...

I had hoped could do that on the replacement here--I've thehe problem outlined above of the water heater exhausts thru it as well and I figured surely there was a liner that could allow it to avoid the other penetration but was told "no"...not allowed to share even if separated flows...

...

Like if it's natural draft and that old it's likely only 50% by design, not 80%, anyway...

Good post; outlines the pertinent points well...

Guess: Problem OP's friend has is quite possibly the condo rules on modifications of units that prevent doing what otherwise could be done. Recommend to OP to investigate whether that's the real hangup instead of actually a real physical installation issue. If so, may need to approach several others and broach the subject in force to get necessary changes in covenants...

--

[Hell Toupee]

furnace takes a shit..

I've heard stories that people on these types of service contracts get serviced last, because the company knows they are captive customers. Which enables the company to give priority to the non-contract customers, 'cause if they don't get to that service call asap, the competition will.

[Hell Toupee]

Coincidentally, there was a story in the local paper just today on this general topic. Excerpted from the article:

"Homeowners facing the prospect of a new furnace will soon have fewer and costlier choices.

The only options in Minnesota and 29 other Northern states will be furnaces with 90 percent efficiency or better, under new rules from the U.S. Department of Energy. Contractors won't be allowed to put in less-efficient models after May 1.

The biggest effect will be on owners of townhouses, condos and single-family homes with furnaces in interior rooms. More-efficient furnace models typically vent out the side wall of a residence, which in some installations can significantly run up the job's cost.

One problem for townhouse owners is that some homeowner associations don't allow side venting of PVC pipes due to aesthetics, and homes where the furnace is in an interior room often require complicated installations adding between $1,000 and $4,000 to the cost, said Jonathan Melchi, director of government affairs at Heating and Air Conditioning Distributors International."

[Ralph Mowery]

Same day service may mean they just come out. They may have to order a part and hard telling when they will come back with that. A major outage may overwhelm the ammount of service men they have and you are not going to get that same day service.

[Don Wiss]

As I have pointed out before, this group has become filled with negativity. Here is yet another example.

Only people on the "Priority Service Plan" receive service on weekends and holidays. And the contract states that the first and last service calls of the day are reserved exclusively for us. I seriously doubt that the firm is playing games on their contract customers.

There is nothing wrong with buying a high efficiency furnace, as long as you can properly vent and drain it.

Don.

(e-mail link at home page bottom).

[Don Wiss]

And more negativity in this group!

While it is true that they may have to order a part. But the same day service is guaranteed if calling before 5 PM. If necessary the fellow will work into the evening.

Don.

(e-mail link at home page bottom).

[Vic Smith]

Beyond being over-sized, actual efficiency wasn't much in the calculations. Too much heat for the exchanger, that heat being lost up the stack. I throttled the gas on my old hot water system and it cut my gas bill considerably. Adjusted the air to keep good flame. It cycled more, but that's what I wanted.

[Vic Smith]

An "outage" is a different issue. Even if they have to finds parts, you're still ahead getting same day service.

[HellT]

How so? I've had HVAC guys tell me that. It sounds plausible to me, considering the incredibly lousy customer service provided by companies selling other services on contract plans (such as phone or cable). The common denominator is the captive customer. They don't need to keep those customers happy - they're locked into a contract, after all. As evidenced by their practice of offering special deals to new customers, such deals specifically excluding established customers.

As for high efficiency furnaces, I own one, I'm happy with it, it's nearly a decade old, and I haven't had any issues with it. One of my neighbors got one a couple decades or so ago, when the technology was still pretty new. She had one service call a year after it went it. It's been fine ever since.

To me, this is like the griping about new cars with computer chips and fuel injectors. People think they're less reliable and more prone to failure than the old models, but the statistics bear out otherwise.

[Stormin Mormon]

It may be the straight truth. In that case, I'd rather have negative on the usenet list, and be better equipped to face reality.

Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus

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Don.

(e-mail link at home page bottom).

[clare]

furnace in a pantry off the kitchen. She wants to replace it with a high efficiency furnace, taking her from 80% efficiency to 95% efficiency,for the fuel savings.

efficiency unit in that space but didn't give a good reason, at least not one that she understood. One complicating factor is that she thiks that there is just one chimney outlet on the roof which is shared by the two adjoining condos but I haven't actually seen the unit as it's hundreds of miles away.

to just remove the old unit and put in a new one unless the high efficiency units are somehow larger, hotter or whatever.

Exactly the same thing can be, and is done, with forced air over here. In the UK they may not have such advanced central heating. And what other fuel was mentioned, by the way??? GENERALLY if someone is using natural gas for heat, they use natural gas for ALL fuelled appliances. Same with propane. The chances of having a combination of any 2 of propane, natural gas, oil, or coal in North America is extremely slim.

Might be different in "harry's world"

[clare]

Agreed - I could not buy a small enough furnace for my house. Settled for the smallest 2 stage I could get (35/50,000 BTU) which has never run more than 8 hours a day. In Ontario.

[clare]

In the 30 years I've owned this house, I've spent Just over $8000 total on HVAC and hot water equipment - including a new furnace and 2 new water heaters. That's about $267 per year. And I've never waited until the water heater left me with a big puddle or no hot water - The AC has never let me down, and the worst the old furnace did to me was loose a fan motor on the coldest night of the year. Had a replacement motor in within 12 hours.