Part of the price is squeezing the stuff down a 4x4' trap door into a
10x10' basement. I think the estimate was generous for the aggravation.BTW, it looks like the installation price 25 years ago, was very nearly as high! I get the feeling that was not well priced back then!
Thanks for the other numbers, helps a lot.
J.
Inland San Diego, which is probably similar to your location in LA.
We had our 25 year old hot-air gas furnaces and airconditioners (3 ton each) replaced 2 years ago. Installed price was 8,000. Bids ranged from 16,000 to
7,000. You need to do a lot more homework. Also, make sure to take out a permit. As part of the replacement you are required by law to have a verification of your duct system. This cost another $ 500. If you don't do it, it will bite you when you sell the house.Also replaced our two water heaters, 40 gal. gas, last year: $ 800 each, courtesy Home Depot. At $ 1500 for one, you are getting ripped off.
25 years is about the maximum life expectancy for gas furnaces. Don't go for the expensive, high efficiency furnaces and air conditioners. We pay about $ 100 a year for air conditioning electricity. Would take several lifetimes to pay for high efficiency units.
Yes.
We probably have some old asbestos hanging around, how much of a $$ is that likely to be?
I guess I could call them for an estimate, but they don't do the work, do they, just hook you up with some "approved vendors"?
Again, these (both furnace and water heater) have to be manually hauled into a very inconvenient hole - or else installed in a new outside shelter somewhere. I can see a hundred dollars or more premium for the difficulty. And they were saying new ducts are necessary, another couple of hundred, I guess. But it still may be high, thanks.
Excellent point, thanks.
Even the run of the mill is probably a lot more efficient than these old models, 1984 was just before the more-efficient appliances movements began.
J.
Here in NJ companies are running newspaper ads for Trane 100K BTU upright gas furnace and 13SEER AC for around $5k AFTER rebates and tax credits. I think as of right now the tax credits for high eff units expire the end of the year, though they might get extended. Make sure you check on ALL rebates available from manufacturers, utility companies, FED/state govt etc. They are substantial but only apply to high eff models and now could be a good time to replace a 25 year old unit.
Someone mentioned buying a controller from Graingers for $35. I'd like to see THAT!! You can get a generic controller for about $100 from White-Rodgers, but without a flame probe, and you will proly have to add extra blower relays.
If I understood the problem correctly, the flame going out is not a pilot problem -- a pilot problem would prevent any ignition. The problem (now) is the flame doesn't stay on, which could mean a flame probe/sensor problem. Flame probes cost anywhere from $25 to $100.
Which doesn't mean the exchanger is *not* cracked, but I think this is dicey to diagnose, as blowers can stir up ambient air around them as well, making match/smoke tests difficult to assess.
Rewiring a furnace is not rocket science, but it does requre some familiarity with basic electricity, relays, etc.
As you live in L.A. and it is not very cold there and not very hot in the summer, I would say get it repaired if the cost to repair is less than about
50% of the replacement cost.If you lived up north where heating is a major expense, then it would be a good idea to replace it now rather than later because the energy savings on new units would help to pay for it.
Or if you lived in Arizona with summer temperatures frequently around 110 F., then replace the A/C as the newer units can save quite a bit of electricity and A/C is a major expense there.
Complicating life is that the heater is down in a cramped little basement, do they really have to haul it back to the shop to work on anyway?
BTW I also talked to the guy who gave me the quotes yesterday (and is giving me a little high-pressure, it's in his job description, but when I told him I just have to get some more bids, he was decent about it), I said that $1500 for the water heater sounded high, and he said yes, it's the cramped location, and see if other bids don't say the same.
Thanks.
J.
FWIW, a recent article I just ran across in one of my RSS feeds.....
I expect the way the company could do the install so cheap was their very efficient organization. Phoning in the duct info to someone back at the shop vs. trucking back and forth, with nothing being done on side during transit time could greatly increase the time to completion and therefore the total labor costs and the number of jobs that could be completed in a day.
It's always easier and cheaper for a big company to hire teams of sellers whose only goal is to scare you into getting a replacement. It takes far less skilled labor to rip out something old and replace it with new gear than it does to diagnose and fix a problem. If you're a rip and replace shop, you don't have to have as many skilled mechanics, don't have to worry about finding parts for old units, don't have to worry about your repairs being up to code and don't have to take liability for anything that goes wrong after they've worked on/tampered with your unit.
The problem is that things aren't engineered to last forever anymore, so your 1984 unit is well likely to need replacement. Furnaces are relatively simple devices. Even so, 25 years is a lot of "miles" for a unit that was probably not built to last forever as some of the older units were.
Compare the heat exchanger on an old Chrylser Air Temp to a modern furnace and you'll see why so many new exchangers die young. The old units were massive (I had one that was the size of a VW bug) and it took moisture build up a long, long time to eat through the exchanger. But lasting a long time is a blessing and a curse. Technology moves so quickly that maintaining old equipment often doesn't make good economic sense as newer equipment is often incredibly more efficient than older designs.
I'm going to have to replace my unit soon, so I'm in the same boat. Old furnace, old A/C and high climate control bills. Others have given very good advice. Shop around, check the local consumer protection agency, check the estimate they give you on the net, and beware the vendor who tries to do what that double AA transmission franchise is famous for. They lowball the price and then jack it when your furnace has been removed and the need for extra equipment appears. You're stuck without heat and are pretty much bent over the railing at that point.
Only careful checking of references and complaints can help you avoid that sort of scamming scum. Furnaces, water heaters, A/Cs, mattresses and other relatively "few per lifetime" purchases are favorites of dishonest vendors. People buy them so infrequently that they don't have the same sense about what the fair price should be as they do milk, gasoline or even new cars. As a result, vendors know there's a terrible tendency for consumers to overpay.
-- Bobby G.
"Walter R." wrote in news:hcogtq$ehb$ snipped-for-privacy@news.eternal-september.org:
I would expect the HVAC to do this and be part of the quote. It has to be installed to code and it has to have inspection(s) like gas/mechanical/electrical. When all inspections pass then final payment is made.
"Existential Angst" wrote in news:4af05104$0$4988$ snipped-for-privacy@cv.net:
Neither is spelling "probably".
Yes, the truth seems to be a little grey, and because it's "few per lifetime" (been zero for me, I've mostly been a renter), I have no real judgement.
But I'm glad I can ask here, and get some good advice!
Thanks.
J.
You've described perfectly why it's much easier to "rip and replace" than to repair something 25 years old that's been "worked on" by who knows how many other people including the home-owner or his over-ambitious teen-age son. Instead of working with an unknown entity, they are working with something they've probably installed new several hundred times and the only tough part is to shoehorn the new system into the old ductwork.
From what you describe, good installers have that base well-covered, too, because each time an installer has to return, it's profit lost, so they've honed it to a one-day process. Most new furnaces are much smaller than the ones they are replacing, so fitting them is easy, sometimes easier than opening the old furnace, pulling the exchanger, getting a replacement and then returning to re-install it, test it, close it back up and discover that something else is wrong that wasn't apparent the first time around.
The problem I have is when they start pulling 5 year old systems because it's easier to "rip and replace" than spend any time diagnosing any but the simplest failures. If you replace too soon, higher efficiency is offset mightily by the dollars that got dragged off with the old furnace.
Todd, you're 101% about getting several estimates. Even if the cold winter is approaching, buy a space heater, bite the bullet, do the research. It's never, ever been easier to find out if a vendor is taking you for a ride because you can plug in the estimate numbers on Google and get a very good idea of the prices others are charging.
Once a vendor knows you've been talking to other vendors, a sort of Ebay auction frenzy takes place and they almost all will cut you a deal in this economic climate. The only one that might not will probably be the lowest bid because they can't go lower without doing the job at a loss. There's never a better time to do home improvement work than right after a big housing boom busts when there are still plenty of contractors around who haven't bitten the bullet and found other work. )-:
-- Bobby G.
IMO, You'd have to be nuts to put anyhwere near 50% of the replacement cost into a 25 year old gas furnace. That is the typical life expectancy for units of that era. With all the rebates and credits available around here, NJ, which certainly is one of the more expensive area, you can get a new furance and AC installed for about $5000 after rebates and tax credit. Now way I'd sink say $2400 into a 25 year old unit.
How about after he spends $2400 on it, two year later it has another major failure?
Replacing just the AC on a 25 year old gas furnace makes no sense to me. Especially with all the rebates and credits available right now that knock thousands off the actual cost.
It gets a bit complicated with heating and A/C due to more efficient new models, rebates, etc....
Anyway with things other than that, I've seen some businesses have a policy of ALWAYS repairing things if the repair cost is less than buying a new one. One dollar less to repair, they will choose repair!
This makes a lot of financial sense. Take an apartment complex for example. There may be 100 units. That is 100 refrigerators. Say 10 of these break each year. And repair costs average 25% of the cost of a new refrigerator. This policy could save thousands of dollars a year on refrigerator maintenance ALONE!
Anyway that is the way some businesses decide the repair / replace question...
I think you meant "proberbally".
As I remember, the OP is in Los Angeles area. And they want ten grand to replace it. Well, gee, for half that price I could fly out, rent a car, and do the repairs. Sounds like either a bad board, or a flame sensor. Could also visit my uncle who lives near LA. And some cousins down the coast, to Santa Cruz, last I knew. Leave the car, fly back to Rochester.
Got a buddy in Rochester, I know slim chance but do you know Bill F Gurney.
Jimmie
Less complicated than you think. I'm saving 40% on my fuel cost with a new boiler. Easy decision. It is paying for itself.
HomeOwnersHub website is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.