Heat/air question again

[stryped]

I have been lookign around at used heat/air conditioners for my garage/ shop. It is not used all the time, mainly on weekends currently. It is a 30x30x10 metal building with 2x4 walls in the inside and 2x4 trusses on the ceiling.

I found a local heating air guy that has an 80's 3 ton unit that he says was workign when pulled out of the house. The owner wanted to upgrade. But, it is not a split system like I have in my house.

Is there a way to use this and it not look bad ? I mean, how would you do the duct from the outside to the inside with a 2x4 wall?

Would this be too inefficent since it is old even though I am not in there all the time. It does get terribly hot in there in the summer, I am not as concerned about heat in the winter. I am in the process of insulating currently and have no inside wall material as of yet other than studs.

I have a 100 amp panel in my garage.

This unit is 300 bucks.

[Slacker]

Look bad-----garage/shop? Come on dude, tell your wife to go back into the kitchen or bedroom where she belongs. She ain't got nuttin' to say about your shop. In fact, tell her to stay the H out...

[stryped]

Actually it was me that wondered that. Having a hugh 12 inch line or two going up the wall might look bad. I dont know. Just weighing my options.

[JIMMIE]

Sounds like an old unit and the people who got rid of finally realized they were throwing good money after bad. Guess its your turn now. May I suggest ceiling fans and beer.

Jimmie

[stryped]

Sometimes while I am workign I have to watch the kids. Putting a small tv in there has been great as they watch cartoons and I can get osme work done. But it is getting hotter and they cant stay in there with me without air conditioning. Which means I get less work done.

[Bob F]

Insulating the ceiling well, with a lot of proper ventilation above the insulation, and then insulating the walls will make a huge difference. A much smaller A/C would then be of use. Having a good way to ventilate the interior when not in use would keep it cooler all the time, reducing cool-down time when needed.

Unless the A/C installer is willing to guarantee the unit, I'd skip that one. It may be near its end of life.

[stryped]

If I found a split system, and wanted to put the air handler in my attic, how could I install it without haveing to take the lines off and thus loosing refridgerant?

[JIMMIE]

Maybe you could build a little room for the children to pay in and just air condition that one small room. My father in law did that when my daughter was little but he had a shop about twice as big as yours. It wouldnt take much more room than a good size closet after all they would still be able to go and come as they please.

Jimmie

[Evan]

LOL... You can't... Once a new system has the refrigerant charge is released from the tank inside the exterior unit in a split system during installation there is no going back...

You would need to recover it into a tank using a vacuum system and then disassemble the system... This activity requires a license... Once you reassemble the system at its new location you would then recharge it using the refrigerant you recovered before you took it apart...

Why you would buy into a system with an unknown past just because it is cheaper than buying a new one of the proper size for your application is baffling... You will either be buying one too small for what you need or one too large and you will be wasting energy...

~~ Evan

[John Grabowski]

*As I understand it, the medium that is used to charge a system that old is being phased out. I've been told by some A/C guys that it is anticipated that it will be real expensive soon. One guy told me that he is saving anything that he can reclaim out of an old system. Aside from the other parts that you be replacing with difficulty the gas inside may cost an arm and a leg.

[Oren]

Don't walk, but run from that deal!

80's ?! Do the job right, perhaps even get tax credit, rebates from your power company and coupons from a local AC company.

My HVAC is 1995 ?. The freon is/has gone way-up since January, so I'm told.

[Stormin Mormon]

If that's the only need for AC, make a "play room" on the shade side, and cut a hole in the wall for a window AC.

To cool the rest of the area so you can work, the three ton unit should do the job. It's only a couple hours one or two days a week, so the energy bill won't kill you too badly.

[Stormin Mormon]

You'd really need an AC installer to move a split system. I used to install them, and have moved one or two.

[Ed Pawlowski]

"Evan" wrote

Sure you can. Start by making a hole in the wall big enough for the evap coil to slide through. Then carefully move everything without bending or breaking the tubing or connections. Should be fun to watch.

[trader4]

That is the first thing I'd check out. Given the tax credits, rebates from the utility, manufacturer's etc, a new system may cost a lot less than you think it would. Factor in some electric savings depending on how much you use it and it could be a better deal.

Another thing. With a shop AC unit I would probably want it rigged for both temp and humidity. There could be periods when it gets too humid inside and you would want it to come on to prevent tools from getting rusty, etc.

[Evan]

Umm... No Ed, you can't... You wouldn't want that refrigerant to escape due to a poor job of securing your "cargo"...

Even more so if you have this "cargo" inside an enclosed vehicle with you... Depending on what type of refrigerant is in use in that old system it might be considered a hazardous material and transportation of it would require a CDL with a hazardous materials certification and a permit issued by the US DOT or a valid certification for CFC refrigerant recovery which trains the certified individual on the safe handling and transport of those hazardous refrigerants...

You don't want to mess around with transporting hazardous materials anymore since the "new post 9/11 reality" became the way of life... It wouldn't be very funny at all...

~~ Evan

[stryped]

Arent the lines copper? Cant you bend them? I was thinking my roofing metal is easily to uninstall. I could rmove it to get the evaporator through, then put back, cutting a notch where the line will go through.

A new unit is at least 2000 bucks and more than I can spend right now.

One other thought. If a person had a "package" unit. (The one with the air handler, evaporator etc all sit outside) Could a person just run a duct on the outside of the building up to the attic space, then into the attic? Will having the duct on the outside cause problems?

[jamesgangnc]

Last time you posted I suggested a package unit. You can run the duct up the outside if you use insulated duct. Run the intake straight in to a filter holder. Run the outlet up to the center of the ceiling and run a piece of spiral duct across the ceiling. You can find a used package unit on craig's list of you are not in a hurry. You want something that is not more that 5-7 years old though. A unit from the

80's is just waiting to break. I have seen them not too expensive. And they don't sell all that well since most people don't know how to install them so you can dicker a good bit.

You don't absolutely have to have a vacuum pump to remove a split system. You do need some gauges and it's probably not something you can do if you don't know anything at all about them. You can pump the refrigerant back into the outside unit using the compressor in the unit by closing the high side outlet and running the unit until the low side pressure is close to zero. Then close the low side valve and shut it down at the same time. Professionals will braze the lines when they reconnect them but on a r22 unit you can also solder them with silver solder. A 30lb can of r22 is about $180 this year. Typical system has around 5 to 7 lbs in it. You're supposed to vacuum down the lines and evaporator when you put one back together but the old guys used to just open the low side to the atmosphere, crack the high side valve and let it vent till they're pretty sure they have pushed the air out with the refrigerant. The close the low side. If you get a split system off craig's list there is a good chance it will be empty as a lot of these people removing them do not know they aren't allow to release the refrigerant and will just cut the lines. I picked up a 1 1/2 ton for $250 off craig's list for my garage, 1 year old. The you really should have a vacuum pump as well as the gauges.

[stryped]

Would the duct look ok running up the outside?

As far as air conditionign I have owrked on cars alot but not home. I have my certification to buy automotive refrigerant. I have guages but they are for R134-a. I can purchase a vacuum pump at harbor freight. (I use an old refrigerator compressor currently).

[jamesgangnc]

It would look like a duct running up the outside. I'd suggest you pick a wall towards the rear or on the far side of the structure where you won't spend a lot of time anyway. You can paint it the same color. If you're worried about the look outside then run it inside. Put the unit near a corner and run the inlet side straight in and the outlet up the corner and across the ceiling diagonally. You can box it in if you want to make it look nice. If you have attic space you could just run some flex from the top.

If you go with a packaged unit you don't need to mess with the refrigerant but I think you might be able to buy r22 with the same certificate.