OK.
Say it ain't so! That would be *highly* unusual and would not be an issue with demand metering, now would it?
Yes, did you? It talks about residential customers not having demand metering.
Good grief, you're stupid!
Isn't it a TIME metering (usage in peak times is metered differently than off-peak times)? Peak metering on such small loads would be dumb.
Yes, we've already discussed all that. Ad-nauseam.
You're not following this thread, then. People are trying to figure out what is causing the moron OP to run around with his hair on fire.
What a joke.
The "power coming into the building" can be no more than the power being used by the building's equipment, devices or appliances.
That fact that I've got some high-rated switch gear and primary supply wire shouldn't play a role in how I'm billed. It's still a basic
3-phase 120/208 supply. Nothing fancy.
So you agree that 2000 kwh is a pittance.
So what?
Why should any utility put a demand meter on anyone pulling only 2000 kwh per month?
If that statement is incorrect, then you tell us how many kwh a 100 amp single phase service can provide in a month (730 hours in a month, btw).
I agree that you're a moron, but I'm certainly not alone here.
They certainly didn't. Why do you insist they did?
It's not, but that doesn't change the fact that you're stupid as a stump.
It might be correct, but completely irrelevant. Unless your power company (or PUC) is totally whacked, you wouldn't have demand metering with such a puny service.
Now, why don't you listen to the people you're asking question of? Or put another way, why did you ask if you don't want the answer?
Hi, Is that 3-ph. Delta or Star configured? So many were talking about Pf and still you talk like that? I resigned, over and out. It may be easier to tech my cat.
messagenews:irtksp$la2$ snipped-for-privacy@speranza.aioe.org...
@Bobby:
Or the OP could have an an electrician install an emon demon like RBM suggested in his main service panel and the reading from it and the amount of electricity the OP is being billed for should always agree...
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------- That's true, but it will cost a bunch of money. The Kil-O-Watt is dirt cheap, it's an essential tool that EVERYONE who cares about the co$t of electricity should have, AND it doubles-checks the company meter using a wholly different way of computing usage than the company uses and even the sub-meter at emon uses.
If their meter is bad or wired to a parasitic load, remotely monitoring a sub-meter won't help a bit. It seems everyone here is making a lot of assumptions based on facts not entered into evidence. If he does an inventory with the KOW and the aggregate demand of each electrical device doesn't come within a ballpark figure of the company billing, THEN he's got some work to do. The KOW won't catch problems like running the A/C and the heat at the same time (I had that experience at one job site where the server room was independently cooled at the same time it was centrally heated and the power bills skyrocketed).
The remote monitor might not catch an idiot neighbor who has vampire tapped the OP's circuits. How do you catch a 20A circuit "accidentally" going to the space next door with a sub-meter any better than you can with the main meter? How can a sub-meter or remote monitor solution catch an electric resistance heater in someone else's space that he's paying for? That's a hell of a lot more common than people might think in multiple occupant dwellings. The original occupants know they have some cross-linked wiring but deal with it in their lease or informally. When they move out, the institutional memory of how that cross-linking worked goes with them.
I lived for a little while with an A/C unit in MY closet that served the tenant on the other side of the divided up second floor. I took the cover off the A-coil and cooled my little studio apartment quite nicely by keeping a fan pointed at the coil. I was a broke college student at the time and felt that if I had to deal with the noise of the unit, I should get some compensation. I moved out a week later when I heard something under the bed and looked to see a roach as large as a mouse scuttle slowly across the floor. When your actually hear a roach's footfalls, you know it's time to trot b'wana. But that's another story . . .
The point is that someone could be doing something nasty like that to the OP. The cabinet might be locked by a tampered looking to keep his tampering away from prying eyes. (-:
In any event, I honestly believe that for the OP's peace of mind, as well as getting some real data points about consumption independent of the meter, spending $25 is a no-brainer. Doing an electrical inventory seems to be a better idea than hiring an electrician to install something he might not ever need if he determines the bill is accurate. I'm in favor of everyone doing a Kil-O-Watt type inventory of their home because they would be surprised to find what some of the high-tech toys take in electricity just to keep the IR remote control or some other circuitry alive.
FWIW, what do you think the cost of an emon d-mon would be for a business? I couldn't find any prices on their site which makes me nervous. It's a technique that typically mean "high priced." I've got a similar system built around a home automation controller that cost about $250 total. Assuming this system needs the same kind of electronics and add another $250 for the install and you're talking $500! I suspect our solutions differ in cost by at least a factor of 20. That's a lot in a cost-centric world.
If HomeGuy was an SOB, he could even send the meter back because saying "It loses its kWh readings if the unit is unplugged or the power blinks." That's the cheap model's Achilles' heel. The more expensive units have a battery and many other features. *IF* he was a skunk and sent it back after using it, that would put the cost at less than $10. But HomeGuy doesn't sound like a skunk, just a perplexed business owner trying to control his costs. He's not an electro-techie yet he's somehow pissed off a whole lot of electro-techies who seem to believe he should be "getting it" by now.
This thread in particular was really a lot less collegiate than it should have been. People "get it" when they "get it" and insulting them doesn't ever help them "get it" faster, it usually just degenerates the thread. It has to make you wonder if that's not the goal: Not to be helpful, but to deliberately *try* to start an on-line brawl. I guess it's spring and the testosterone's running higher than the mighty Mississippi.
Home Guy, I'll probably take a beating myself for saying this (fish got to swim, scolds have to scold) but I'm sorry you took such a pounding. It's uncalled for, especially over an apolitical issue like this. If you really want to take a beating, try starting this thread. "I want to design a system to limit my kid's PC and phone use." The scolds will be clawing each other bloody trying to explain that you wouldn't need such a system if you were a better parent. They will probably even insult your kids whom they've never met nor know anything about. That's Usenet!
It always takes two to tango but abusing someone because they don't understand something in a group that's allegedly here to share information seems a bit harsh. It never makes anyone understand any better, it just raises their hackles. Can anyone here ever remember a *competent* teacher dealing with a student that way? Of course not. So why is it OK here to question someone's intelligence repeatedly on what is a complex techno-geographical question whose true parameters are probably still not known to a majority of posters and are peculiar to the OP's location? Everyone went to DefCon 4 in a microsecond. It usually takes this sort of
their horns a little?
Who hasn't gotten a utility bill and thought "Gee, that seems a bit high?" The Kil-o-Watt is the cheapest, safest way to get a roadmap of your power consumption and to find out what watthogs need to be tamed. It's a must unless you like paying money to the electric company that could have stayed in your pocket.
-- Bobby G.
This electricity provider (National Grid) serves close to 4 million customers across 29,000 square miles of Massachesetts, New Hampshire, New York and Rhode Island.
This is the l =========== National Grid installs a demand meter whenever a customer's energy consumption has exceeded 2000 kilo-watt hours (kWh) per month for four consecutive months. Once demand billing begins, it does not end until after the monthly energy consumption has been less than 2,000 kwh for 12 consecutive months. This requirement may not be avoided by temporarily terminating service. New or existing customers whose connected load indicates that the energy consumption will exceed 2,000 kwh per month will have a demand meter installed. The demand charge will be the hightest average kW measured in a 15 minute interval during the billing period, but not less than one kw and not less than the demand contracted for. =============
Now take your foot out of your mouth and explain why such an agressive policy is needed for a demand meter for such a paltry energy usage.
Why are we talking about the issue of a demand meter and rates? From your previous posts, it was clear you were on the path of attempting to measure KWh usage and verify that it matches the bill. Now, I don't know what kind of bill the guys suggesting it's a rate issue have, but on my bill it clearly shows the Kwh actually used. Any billing at higher rates is then taken care of by adjusting the rate clearly on the bill.
And weren't those Kwh usage numbers from the bills that you posted already that we had?
On 5/30/2011 4:51 AM, Robert Green wrote: ...
Again, this ignores the symptom as posted earlier--over 17 months the average is reasonably consistent w/ two extreme outliers (which are both early in separate calendar years).
If the meter were faulty that wouldn't be the kind of error on would expect; one would expect continuously high (or may getting higher) usage indication if it's over-metering. Or, the parasitic/stolen load is intermittent. Or some other effect nobody's thought of.
Yet again, I conjecture the "normal" readings are estimated and the large ones are an annual "cactchup" to match reality when the meter is actually physically read again. Certainly not conclusive but there's bound to be a reason and it's unlikely the OPs simplistic technique is going to get anywhere in resolving the issue.
As others have said, a physical photocopy of a couple of the monthly bills (obviously w/ personal data elided) posted at a hosting site would be quite an interesting exhibit.
A monitoring of what can be will start, but in a complex he'll still have quite a few loads that can't be on the kill-o-watt meter (sp?); as far as I know they're only available for single-phase loads and his main loads likely are the lights/heat/etc that I would presume are 3...
There seems a fixation on this demand meter but a) don't even know if it is, and b) even if were, doesn't make any difference other than $$ amounts; doesn't explain/have anything to do w/ the above usage data that aren't the billing amounts but the used kwh.
--
OK, there's at least another data point. What does the bill itself say are the rates just for confirmation that they used the same (or only fuel factors or other known rate adjustments)?
Again, does the bill actual say every month is a "real" reading or estimated or averaged/computer-generated one? That should be discernible as well. That the months that are such obvious outliers are both early in different calendar years and that the other months are more or less regular makes me think they aren't reading the meter physically on the first of every month as you think but are using a use-estimating/averaging plan w/ the annual catchup that's getting you because the average isn't high enough for the total annual use.
I'd again ask; does that same trend hold for the other four years or so since you've had the building? I'm thinking it's a good likelihood it does. What is the annual _total_ use for each year? Is that pretty consistent?
Picking up the phone and confirming that would be a start. Sending a copy of the summary statements that show the anomaly and asking for an explanation of that would be another step.
The single-month discrepancies don't jibe w/ the other ideas thrown out imo unless there's a client/renter/interloper who has a one-month-a-year fetish to run a kiln 24/7 or somesuch large (very) intermittent load.
--
Thoroughout this discussion it's been clear that Homeguy has been talking about KWh from his bills. I don't know what kind of bills you get, but every bill I've seen shows the METER readings and then seperates out any rate issues. In other words, they send you a bill for 1000Kwh at rate 15c and 300 at rate 20c. I haven't seen one adjusted for peak usage, but it sure would seem that would be handled on the bill by some obvious multiplier, like 1.3X, etc.
For what you are suggesting to be behind what Homeguy is seeing, the meter would have to be taking all that in to account, instead of giving true Kwh usage, peak demand, time of use, etc and then having the billing folks calculate what to do with it and show it on the bill. And then you would never see the true Kwh used, which has been on every electric bill I've ever seen.
Don;t you think Homeguy can read a bill?
Don;t know how it works where you are, but both the cost of the energy and the delivery costs, which are seperated out are significant parts of my bill.
On 5/30/2011 7:34 AM, Home Guy wrote: ...
I did (or at least made a surmise) earlier...
I would presume that it is owing to the intense regulation being imposed on utilities that almost completely hamstrings them from being able to expand generation (and of also transmission) capacities or even to keep existing generation online.
In such a circumstance, anything they can do to provide incentives to users to level peak demand is a plus.
Or, the other possibility is that it is a condition placed on them by the State regulators. Certainly it will have been approved by same.
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Because some people have speculated that I was on a demand meter, and that degenerated into what the typical (or actual) criteria is for a utility company to install a demand meter for a given customer.
Yes, that was on friday. Most of this discussion took place over the weekend, when there was little or no opportunity for new information to come forward.
Yes. You'd have to take up that issue with those that have been harping on the possibility that I have a demand meter.
Yes, those were the "raw" KwH numbers from previous bills. They include a 5% "adjustment factor" to cover energy lost to "line loss" - primarily in the form of heat (heating in supply wires, step-down transformers, etc) - at least that's how they define it.
The adjustment factor for residential customers is 4.1%, and I believe for commercial customers it's 5%.
I've stated already that the meter is consistently read by a person on either the first or second business day of the month. This person must be escorted to the utility room where the meter is located. About half the time I do this, and when I don't to it a co-worker does, and I'm told about it.
Our water meter is read by the same person at the same time.
Since never a single month goes by without a reading, your theory of estimated billing caused by a missed reading should not apply.
I will post more info on what a typical bill looks like, and whether or not I see the word "estimated" anywhere on it.
I do know that the bill is broken down into about 4 or 5 different energy rates.
IE - the first X kwh is billed at Y cents per kwh, and the next J kwh is billed at K cents per kwh, etc.
Our residential bills are similarly structured, but they have fewer tiers (maybe just 2, or 3 at most).
Let me throw this out as a new question:
How are poly-phase (in this case, 3 phase) kwh measurements made?
Is it just the sum of the individual phases, or is it the sum times some factor (ie square-root of 3) or some such?
How about a more simple explanation: Creative revenue enhancement?
Well, that's first time I've seen it stated that you personally knew the meter was physically read; previously left the possibility/probability that the reader did his thing w/o your personal knowledge; only you presumed it was done.
Do you verify the readings this person takes at the time? Since there's such a question when the large reading shows up, it would seem only reasonable to do so.
I can then only go back to the suggestion of ask, ask, ask, for what is going on. Somehow, something is very different in those particular months (but I don't think it's the meter itself that is likely the cause).
The one the church here is on is computer-generated and isn't perfectly level; the algorithm adjusts for factors such as weather based on a (very) crude model that uses previous years' records for an adjustment factor to try to preclude the catch-up from being too far out. Hence, the monthlies aren't identical. OTOH, the residential level-pay plans from the same utility in town don't have the adjustment; they are flat.
Well, while OP said that early on, it wasn't clear to me that that might have been his impression as opposed to an actual observation that indeed a real meter reader did physically read the meter each and every month. So, I was surmising there could be a difference between actual and what OP thought was actual.
His later posting indicates the guy actually shows up; it's still indeterminate what he actually does since we don't have his actions on youtube to see that he only walks in, scribbles down some random set of numbers and leaves... :)
Indeed.
Still the very large outliers while others are more or less consistent just reeks of manual correction somewhere. Or, there is a phantom load that is in use on occasion that OP doesn't know about. It isn't meter creep or somesuch causing that discrepancy that is so great.
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