Makes sense, since "all electric" is about major hearing appliances (stove, dryer, water heater, furnace, hot tub?).
We don't have many long (several days) power outages, but I remember using a generator during a recent one. Weather was good (no need for A/C). I was surprised at how little electricity I needed, except for short periods of cooking.
[snip]
People seriously overestimate what their 120v loads really are, particularly compared to the 240v loads in a house that is not burning fossil fuel. If you could easily use European hair dryers, coffee makers and other "heat producers" your 120v load could easily be less than 10 amps most of the time. That was what occurred to me when I drew up that service with one end of the secondary grounded. If you could use single pole breakers and switches for 240v loads everything starts getting a lot cheaper. As Bod and our other UK visitors point out, when you need a lot of watts, 240 kicks ass. It was really just the scare tactics from Thomas Edison that got us on "110" that has now creeped up to a nominal 120v. He wanted everyone to use his DC based system and he started a campaign to show the public how AC was a killer. When he was dragged kicking and screaming into AC, he created that obsolete "2 phase".
I looked those up. As I expected, they are "delta V" and "Scott T". Often pronounced the other way, but written this way.
If it's going the other way (and not 180?*), it's a different phase.
120? is different from -120? (also called 240?). It's on the OTHER SIDE (or the circle). A complete cycle is 360? not 180.
And if you brought those taps in to use to power loads, you'd have three
80 volt sources, that are either in phase or 180 out of phase (polarity) with respect to each other. I went through exactly that with Fretwell two days ago. With a center tap transformer, you have TWO,If you're so smart, define N phase power for us? How can you argue about something when you can't define it? I have defined it and the definition is consistent with electrical engineering and it covers it all, from one phase to N phase.
And if you're so smart, why don't you take the simple circuits 101 quiz? Fretwell won't.
Problem 1:
Define N phase power?
Problem two:
According to Fretwell, two phase power existed 100 years ago, and it was over two wires, 90 degrees phase difference. Suppose I run it over 3 wires instead, with a shared neutral, make it 120V. So, you have a generator supplying 120V, two coils, one shared neutral. Would there still be two phases there? (I believe Fretwell said yes) Your answer?
So now, I run that from the generator into a house, we have three wires,
120V, two phases. If I change the phase difference to 179 degrees instead of 90 by rotating one coil, are there still two phases? Yes or no?Now I rotate it to 180 phase difference. Are there still two phases, yes or no? If you disagree, explain how it's different, how there suddenly there are not two phases there.
(My answer is yes and the final step above makes it absolutely IDENTICAL to what you have coming into the house with 240/120. The electrons are behaving exactly the same. )
Problem number 3
I take 3 phase power with a neutral into a house. One phase is at zero, one is at 120, one is at 240, correct? I can see them on a scope, yes?
Now I rotate one coil so that instead of 120, it's at 179. Are there still three phases?
Now I rotate it one degree more, to 180. Are there still 3 phases, yes or no?
Now take away the 240 phase. How many phases now? If it's not two, explain why.
And if it is two, then again, it's now ELECTRICALLY IDENTICAL TO 240/120 se rvice. IF you believe it's electrically different, explain why and how it matters in terms of the behavior of the electrons in the service conductors.
Problem number 4:
Draw the basic circuit model of 240/120 service. My model uses TWO voltage sources, with a shared neutral. One is 120V sin(wt), the other 120V sin(wt+180) or of alternate polarity connection, if you like. That is the only way to model that circuit, because that is what is there. When you center tap it, you now have TWO voltage sources. Which by the way is exactly what the professor is saying, you have two sources, 180 out of phase with each other, that's how you treat it. Do you agree with that? If not, tell us your alternate model .
Problem number 4:
Someone asks why they can't randomly parallel any two receptacles in a hous e. My answer is, because you have two 120V voltage sources that are 180 deg out of phase with each other or of alternate polarity if you like. You can only parallel ones that are of the same phase or polarity. Your answer?
Why don't you take the simple circuits 101 test for us? I've answered every question you've asked. If you understand circuits 101 and phase it's very easy.
Problem 1:
Define N phase power?
Problem two:
According to Fretwell, two phase power existed 100 years ago, and it was over two wires, 90 degrees phase difference. Suppose I run it over 3 wires instead, with a shared neutral, make it 120V. So, you have a generator supplying 120V, two coils, one shared neutral. Would there still be two phases there? (I believe Fretwell said yes) Your answer?
So now, I run that from the generator into a house, we have three wires,
120V, two phases. If I change the phase difference to 179 degrees instead of 90 by rotating one coil, are there still two phases? Yes or no?Now I rotate it to 180 phase difference. Are there still two phases, yes or no? If you disagree, explain how it's different, how there suddenly there are not two phases there.
(My answer is yes and the final step above makes it absolutely IDENTICAL to what you have coming into the house with 240/120. The electrons are behaving exactly the same. )
Problem number 3
I take 3 phase power with a neutral into a house. One phase is at zero, one is at 120, one is at 240, correct? I can see them on a scope, yes?
Now I rotate one coil so that instead of 120, it's at 179. Are there still three phases?
Now I rotate it one degree more, to 180. Are there still 3 phases, yes or no?
Now take away the 240 phase. How many phases now? If it's not two, explain why.
And if it is two, then again, it's now ELECTRICALLY IDENTICAL TO 240/120 service. IF you believe it's electrically different, explain why and how it matters in terms of the behavior of the electrons in the service conductors.
Problem number 4:
Draw the basic circuit model of 240/120 service. My model uses TWO voltage sources, with a shared neutral. One is 120V sin(wt), the other 120V sin(wt+180) or of alternate polarity connection, if you like. That is the only way to model that circuit, because that is what is there. When you center tap it, you now have TWO voltage sources. Which by the way is exactly what the professor is saying, you have two sources, 180 out of phase with each other, that's how you treat it. Do you agree with that? If not, tell us your alternate model.
Problem number 4:
Someone asks why they can't randomly parallel any two receptacles in a house. My answer is, because you have two 120V voltage sources that are 180 deg out of phase with each other or of alternate polarity if you like. You can only parallel ones that are of the same phase or polarity. Your answer?
I see, more insults. I defined N phase power. I'm still waiting for your definition. It's pretty obvious that if you can't even define it, then you don't know much about it. And you still refuse to take the simple quiz, one that is at the first week of an electrical engineers education level.
Really, why is that so? Why is it that you're here off in the wilderness again, instead of answering the simple questions in sequence. Why do you keep going off in other directions, instead of simply analyzing, step by step a very simple example? You said the old system from 100 years ago was two phase, at 90 deg difference. I can clearly get that from two windings, it's part of the simple test. Anybody that is an electrician or an engineer has to know that. You take two windings, put them on the same shaft, 90 deg separated and you have TWO PHASES. Good grief, this is beyond dumb. Connect one end of the windings together on a common neutral, you have two phases 90 deg apart over three wires. Yes? Make each phase 120V with respect to the neutral. Run that into a house. What do you have? TWO PHASES, 90 deg phase difference.
Now move one winding so it's 179 deg instead of 90. Still two phases? Now move it to 180? If that isn't still two phases, then explain how one phase just disappeared. THAT would be a parlor trick. In elec engineering there are no parlor tricks. There were two phases present in all of this, it's all consistent. And no transformers were involved in any of this.
The way you get two phase
ROFL
There you go again. I gave you and the others here DAYS to give us your definition of N phase power. I deliberately waited, letting you wander around in the wilderness. While claiming you know all about phases and electrical engineering, not one of you could define it. I did. And the definition covers it all, from one phase to N phase. It covers the example above. IT covers a center tapped transformer. Here's another thought, if two phases requires a transformer, what happens when the power goes out and I switch to a standby generator? Transformer in there? No, it's a generator with two windings connected together. It puts out two 120V voltage sources that are 180 deg out of phase with respect to the neutral. You just can't get it through your head that exactly how it's created doesn't matter. You can create a 240/120 service from a generator, from a transformer, or from *again* a fully synthesized electronic source using a battery. IT does not change what is there, what you see, how it behaves. In elec engineering we don't even need it to exist, we can analyze it on paper. I've given you about ten times now to go logically through those phase examples, but you wont go through those problems because you're cornered and can't explain it. That's what happens when you don't know what you're talking about, can't even define N phase power and make it up on the fly.
More psycho babble BS. Obviously you can have any phase relationship you want. What, is that a new law Congress passed or something? 90 deg phase allowed. 120 deg, 240 deg for 3 phase allowed. All other phases banned? This is beyond silly. Whether they are useful, efficient, etc is another story. But they can easily be created by using as many windings as there are phases, with the windings separated by whatever phase difference I want. BTW, the phase relationship of everyday
3 phase exceeds 180, there are 3 phases, 0, 120, 240. Good grief.Let us know when you're ready to take the simple circuits 101 quiz.
Look - everyone is marching out of step but you.
2 phases in your opinion - not shared by design engineers, manufacturers and people who work with electrical systems.Your source said distribution engineers consider 240/120 to be single phase.
g has answered your questions, though you claim not (just as you said I didn't answer a question in the previous thread for 3 levels after I answered it).
But you can call it whatever you want to if you don't mind problems communicating with people in the power industry.
I wasted time in the previous thread.
I don't know if there is an official industry-recognized definition authority...but I'm pretty certain it ain't you. ;-)
However, the major-league players that I'm personally familiar with (American Electric Power, GE, SQD, Siemens, Cutler Hammer, Generac and the National Electric Code) have all listed the installed equipment at my residence for single phase service. Not one mention of your 180° "two-phase" terminology.
But when you are talking about a triangle (which 3p Delta looks like)
180 is going to be where the triangle flips over and goes the other way. The phase rotation would change at 180 and then you would be back to the complement. If you put two secondaries series (end to end) and there is any phase shift, it will end up being 3 phase. That is what the red leg delta usually is (2 transformers). The ghost phase is simply there when you look. The question I have never even seen asked is if the phase shift was anything but 120 on the input, would the output still assume the normal 120? You might not be able to maintain 3 phase any other way. I simply do not know.
That's a lie. Mark here has agreed with my position as did another poster from the beginning of the thread. And the electrical engineering professor, 40 years of experience, IEEE Life Member, presented a paper at a power industry conference that said exactly the same thing and showed how you correctly model and analyze 240/120 service! So, now instead of using simple electrical engineering analysis, you're reduced to counting numbers of posts and lying.
Here is the full abstract, restored for all to read:
"Distribution engineers have treated the standard "singlephase" distributio n transformer connection as single phase because from the primary side of t he transformer these connections are single phase and in the case of standa rd rural distribution single phase line to ground. However, with the advent of detailed circuit modeling we are beginning to see distribution modeling and analysis being accomplished past the transformer to the secondary. Whi ch now brings into focus the reality that standard 120/240 secondary system s are not single phase line to ground systems, instead they are three wire systems with two phases and one ground wires. Further, the standard 120/240 secondary is different from the two phase primary system in that the secon dary phases are separated by 180 degrees instead of three phases separated by 120 degrees. "
Why is it that I can define N phase power and no one else here can? Bud, where is your definition? Where are your answers to those simple questions that a first week EE student could answer? No answers, just attacks. I answered them all and I answered every question Fretwell posed.
Stop deliberately editing what he really said. He said that while that's what they have considered it, that in actual electrical engineering analysis, it's two phase and needs to be analyzed as such. He then goes through the math to show how changes in the loads effect voltages back at the transformer. His position is EXACTLY like mine. You sound hopelessly lost, unable to analyze it from electrical engineering circuits 101 and instead only offering up, "but everybody calls it single phase". I acknowledged that in my earliest post, so does the IEEE Fellow. It doesn't change what's there. It;s like claiming that because people commonly refer to the stuff you blow your nose in as Kleenex or tissues, that you can't correctly analyze it as a soft paper product made from trees.
That's another big lie. He won't go through that simple series of question s one after the other, where I make my case because he's caught in insurmountable contradictions and can't answer it. That's why you won't answer them either.
though you claim not (just as you said I
How honest and logical. You came in here starting off with a nasty attack on me. You have time for all the BS you just posted above, but I post a simple series of questions that go to the heart of the issue and you have no time to answer those. The guy that called my qualificatio n into question, can't answer a dozen simple questions. Nor can you define N phase power. Nuff said about who knows what they are talking about and who does not. Here are the questions again, so everyone can see what the "experts" can't answer:
Problem 1:
Define N phase power?
Problem two:
According to Fretwell, two phase power existed 100 years ago, and it was over two wires, 90 degrees phase difference. Suppose I run it over 3 wires instead, with a shared neutral, make it 120V. So, you have a generator supplying 120V, two coils, one shared neutral. Would there still be two phases there? (I believe Fretwell said yes) Your answer?
So now, I run that from the generator into a house, we have three wires,
120V, two phases. If I change the phase difference to 179 degrees instead of 90 by rotating one coil, are there still two phases? Yes or no?Now I rotate it to 180 phase difference. Are there still two phases, yes or no? If you disagree, explain how it's different, how there suddenly there are not two phases there.
(My answer is yes and the final step above makes it absolutely IDENTICAL to what you have coming into the house with 240/120. The electrons are behaving exactly the same. )
Problem number 3
I take 3 phase power with a neutral into a house. One phase is at zero, one is at 120, one is at 240, correct? I can see them on a scope, yes?
Now I rotate one coil so that instead of 120, it's at 179. Are there still three phases?
Now I rotate it one degree more, to 180. Are there still 3 phases, yes or no?
Now take away the 240 phase. How many phases now? If it's not two, explain why.
And if it is two, then again, it's now ELECTRICALLY IDENTICAL TO 240/120 se rvice. IF you believe it's electrically different, explain why and how it matters in terms of the behavior of the electrons in the service conductors.
Problem number 4:
Draw the basic circuit model of 240/120 service. My model uses TWO voltage sources, with a shared neutral. One is 120V sin(wt), the other 120V sin(wt+180) or of alternate polarity connection, if you like. That is the only way to model that circuit, because that is what is there. When you center tap it, you now have TWO voltage sources. Which by the way is exactly what the professor is saying, you have two sources, 180 out of phase with each other, that's how you treat it. Do you agree with that? If not, tell us your alternate model .
Problem number 4:
Someone asks why they can't randomly parallel any two receptacles in a hous e. My answer is, because you have two 120V voltage sources that are 180 deg out of phase with each other or of alternate polarity if you like. You can only parallel ones that are of the same phase or polarity. Your answer?
rity...but I'm pretty certain it ain't you. ;-)
ican Electric Power, GE, SQD, Siemens, Cutler Hammer, Generac and the Natio nal Electric Code) have all listed the installed equipment at my residence for single phase service. Not
Again, if you look at my very first post I acknowledged that is what it's
*called*. That does not change what's there and how you analyze it. It's like saying because the stuff you blow your nose in is commonly called Kleenex or tissues, that you can't analyze it and describe what's there as a soft paper product made out of trees.If you're so smart, then you should be able to answer these very simple circuits 101 first week questions:
Problem 1:
Define N phase power?
Problem two:
According to Fretwell, two phase power existed 100 years ago, and it was over two wires, 90 degrees phase difference. Suppose I run it over 3 wires instead, with a shared neutral, make it 120V. So, you have a generator supplying 120V, two coils, one shared neutral. Would there still be two phases there? (I believe Fretwell said yes) Your answer?
So now, I run that from the generator into a house, we have three wires,
120V, two phases. If I change the phase difference to 179 degrees instead of 90 by rotating one coil, are there still two phases? Yes or no?Now I rotate it to 180 phase difference. Are there still two phases, yes or no? If you disagree, explain how it's different, how there suddenly there are not two phases there.
(My answer is yes and the final step above makes it absolutely IDENTICAL to what you have coming into the house with 240/120. The electrons are behaving exactly the same. )
Problem number 3
I take 3 phase power with a neutral into a house. One phase is at zero, one is at 120, one is at 240, correct? I can see them on a scope, yes?
Now I rotate one coil so that instead of 120, it's at 179. Are there still three phases?
Now I rotate it one degree more, to 180. Are there still 3 phases, yes or no?
Now take away the 240 phase. How many phases now? If it's not two, explain why.
And if it is two, then again, it's now ELECTRICALLY IDENTICAL TO 240/120 se rvice. IF you believe it's electrically different, explain why and how it matters in terms of the behavior of the electrons in the service conductors.
Problem number 4:
Draw the basic circuit model of 240/120 service. My model uses TWO voltage sources, with a shared neutral. One is 120V sin(wt), the other 120V sin(wt+180) or of alternate polarity connection, if you like. That is the only way to model that circuit, because that is what is there. When you center tap it, you now have TWO voltage sources. Which by the way is exactly what the professor is saying, you have two sources, 180 out of phase with each other, that's how you treat it. Do you agree with that? If not, tell us your alternate model .
Problem number 4:
Someone asks why they can't randomly parallel any two receptacles in a hous e. My answer is, because you have two 120V voltage sources that are 180 deg out of phase with each other or of alternate polarity if you like. You can only parallel ones that are of the same phase or polarity. Your answer?
We're not talking about 3 phase, you're dragging that in for obfuscation. But since you want to go there, it's one of the problems I presented you in your simple series of questions that you can't answer. Here it is again:
Step 1: I have a 3 phase power source with neutral coming into a house. There are phases at 0, 120, 240 correct? (Note you're already having problems because a post ago you claimed you can't have a phase past 180, IDK where that one came from). But we all know there are three phases there.
Step 2: So, now I rotate the 120 winding at the generator so it's at
179 degrees instead of 120. Are there still 3 phases there?Step 3: Now I rotate it one more degree to 180 deg, are there still 3 phases there? I say that would be a "parlor trick", if rotating that winding one more degree somehow made that phase magically disappear.
Step 4: Now I get rid of the conductor with phase 240. How many phases now? 3-1 = 2.
Adjust the voltage so that the voltage between each phase and neutral is 120V and you have your three wire 240/120V service. It is absolutely electrically identical to what you get from a center tapped transformer. That's because where it comes from doesn't matter, only what;s there. In my consistent world of electrical engineering all the above is very simple basic stuff and it's all consistent. It's also consistent with my definition of N phase power. It's consistent with what the IEEE Fellow's paper says. You're hung up on what's on the pole, what things have been called for convenience historically and you've boxed yourself in so that you can't answer those simple questions, because it all becomes contradictory.
The rest of the simple problems are repeated below if you'd like to answer them, in series that is. Not half answer one, then drift off into transformer land and get lost in the woods. Imagine it's a simple test in class and answer them in series.
Problem 1:
Define N phase power?
Problem two:
According to Fretwell, two phase power existed 100 years ago, and it was over two wires, 90 degrees phase difference. Suppose I run it over 3 wires instead, with a shared neutral, make it 120V. So, you have a generator supplying 120V, two coils, one shared neutral. Would there still be two phases there? (I believe Fretwell said yes) Your answer?
So now, I run that from the generator into a house, we have three wires,
120V, two phases. If I change the phase difference to 179 degrees instead of 90 by rotating one coil, are there still two phases? Yes or no?Now I rotate it to 180 phase difference. Are there still two phases, yes or no? If you disagree, explain how it's different, how there suddenly there are not two phases there.
(My answer is yes and the final step above makes it absolutely IDENTICAL to what you have coming into the house with 240/120. The electrons are behaving exactly the same. )
Problem number 3
I take 3 phase power with a neutral into a house. One phase is at zero, one is at 120, one is at 240, correct? I can see them on a scope, yes?
Now I rotate one coil so that instead of 120, it's at 179. Are there still three phases?
Now I rotate it one degree more, to 180. Are there still 3 phases, yes or no?
Now take away the 240 phase. How many phases now? If it's not two, explain why.
And if it is two, then again, it's now ELECTRICALLY IDENTICAL TO 240/120 service. IF you believe it's electrically different, explain why and how it matters in terms of the behavior of the electrons in the service conductors.
Problem number 4:
Draw the basic circuit model of 240/120 service. My model uses TWO voltage sources, with a shared neutral. One is 120V sin(wt), the other 120V sin(wt+180) or of alternate polarity connection, if you like. That is the only way to model that circuit, because that is what is there. When you center tap it, you now have TWO voltage sources. Which by the way is exactly what the professor is saying, you have two sources, 180 out of phase with each other, that's how you treat it. Do you agree with that? If not, tell us your alternate model.
Problem number 4:
Someone asks why they can't randomly parallel any two receptacles in a house. My answer is, because you have two 120V voltage sources that are 180 deg out of phase with each other or of alternate polarity if you like. You can only parallel ones that are of the same phase or polarity. Your answer?
Well I'm glad you and I and the residential power industry finally agree it's single-phase.
Power having N number of discrete phase shifts coming from separate phases. Simply sampling one sine wave at two points is not a phase shift
To get "2 phase" one of those transformers needs to be connected to the center tap of the other. It will not be 3 wire it will be at least
4 wire and probably 5 wire. It appears you are simply clueless here.
I have already stated if you connect 2 secondaries end to end and there is any phase shift there at all you create 3 phase delta. Your cluelessness has again made you question bogus.
3 phase delta or wye?As soon as any 2 of the phases line up on a wye, you made real 2 phase. A center tapped transformer attached to another one at the center tap. If you do that in a delta, you just made single phase.
Again a bogus scenario.
No they are IN phase with each other. The current continues to flow in the same direction throughout the whole system at any given instant. Obviously you can NEVER shunt one end of a secondary to the other whether it is center tapped or not. so your paralleling both sides of the transformer is bogus too. If I do take that scope I see this.
Answered above. You are connecting the opposite ends of the secondary together and that won't work even if you cut the center tap out completely. You really need to step back a little and look at the whole system. You are too focused on looking at it from the middle and not from far enough away to see what is really happening.
But that is exactly what you get when you have 2 end to end secondaries out of phase with each other. The 3d phase will suddenly appear. Until you understand that, the rest of your scenario is bullshit.
I've read about those "current wars", apparently at one time "Westinghouse" was used as a synonym for "electrocute".
That's a circular definition. My definition isn't circular:
N Phase Power - A power delivery system that uses N related voltage sources, that are periodic waveforms of the same frequency, differing only in phase.
You're not just sampling it, you're tapping it, creating two voltage sources, with differing currents, flowing to loads and sharing the center tap as the system neutral/reference point. That creates TWO
120v voltage sources that are 180 out of phase with each other with respect to the neutral. And the neutral is not some random point that I selected for a parlor trick, it's the most basic and only reference point in the SYSTEM.You can't answer the simple question above, and I'm the one that's clueless? Again, into the wilderness with transformers. Do you sell transformers? There were no transformers in the problem, it's a simple 120V generator with two windings that differ by 90 degrees!
You're obviously the one that's clueless. It was a problem with a simple generator at 120V, two windings, separated by 90 deg. There are no "secondaries", there are no transformers. Try sticking with the simple problem, instead of diverting off into the wilderness. I guess when power fails in your neighborhood, you get out a transformer because you can't generate power without one?
No answer again, noted. The correct and obvious answer is YES.
Again, inability to answer the simple, direct question noted. The correct and obvious answer is YES.
It's only bogus because you don't know what you're talking about and can't explain it. Using electrical engineering circuits 101, the answer is obvious. What I just created for you, step by step, was slowly morphing a 3 phase power source into a 2 phase one that is identical to the 240/120 service. I know that blows your mind. And I did it without any transformers.
You actually believe that's how it looks? That the left half of the sine wave is across one half of the transformer? The plot is voltage vs time, not winding distance. Those two windings create two 120V sources that are
180 out of phase with each other with respect to the neutral.The transformer looks like two 120V voltage sources. I could replace the transformer with the generator example I gave you and which you bailed out on and diverted back to transformers. I could replace it with an electronically synthesized source using a battery, two 120V voltage sources, sharing a common neutral, 180 different in phase, or of opposite polarity, same thing, and what you have there is EXACTLY THE SAME THING. It's all explained, it all works, it's all consistent, the electrons all flow the same way. And that's why I can answer all those simple questions, while you get stuck.
and that won't work even if you cut the center tap out
You need to stop focusing on transformers. It is a general problem, how to deliver two 120V sources that share a neutral. Whether it comes from a transformer, generator with two windings, an electronic black box, or just exists as a model on paper using two 120V voltage sources doesn't matter.
You're really wandering in the wilderness here. First, it's again noted that you can't discuss simple scenarios, simple systems with a generator with two windings that have a phase difference, without diverting back to transformers and secondaries. FORGET about transformers, they are not required. The third phase in our power grid doesn't "appear" from a transformer, it's generated from one of the THREE windings at the generator. It really is that simple. Maybe we should start with that simple question. Do you agree with that? That a 3 phase generator at the power plant has three windings? One at zero, one at 120, one at 240 degrees?
It is clear you need this crutch to understand what most electrical professional see as a simple single phase system. If it works for you, so be it. Just don't be surprised when professionals write you off as a dumb homeowner and stop listening to you. Be careful out there.
They do but only for efficiency, I think it would still work if they had 2. We talk about transformers because that is how the power gets into the house. The source comes out of the power plant as ungrounded 3p delta. That is transmitted as high voltage, ungrounded 3p delta. Medium voltage (street level) distribution will either be ungrounded 3p delta or 3p wye (usually at 13-26kv). You don't get to see that center tap until it gets to your service drop. That is why we need to talk about transformers and not some pink unicorn fantasy voltage distribution. If you can't make your point with a real life situation, it is a bogus point.
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