Electrical Question

[Joe]

Hi,

I am replacing my medicine cabinet in my bathroom. The old medicine cabinet had the bathroom lights built-in to it at the top. My new medicine cabinet has no lights so I need to install some lighting above it.

My question - the wiring for the light needs to be extended by a foot or so. It is too short to reach where the new lighting will be installed. I have never done electrical work -- is it as easy as just buying a small piece of wire -- hooking up the black, white and copper wire ends of each wire?

Please any help is appreciated. You can assume that I know nothing about wiring - I will not be offended by very obvious things being explained.

Thanks, Joe

[Doug Miller]

No. It is an electrical code requirement that *all* junctions be made inside junction boxes approved for that purpose, *and* that the junctions be accessible. Simply extending the cable as you describe will not meet code.

Since you've never done this before, for your own safety and that of others, PLEASE get someone who understands wiring to help you or show you how, or at least get a book from the library. Electricity is dangerous if mishandled. Mistakes can kill.

[RBM]

Yes, however you have to make splices in splice boxes, which have to be accessible. In your case you'd need to find a location where the cable will reach to, where you can install such a box, or if that won't work, you have to run a new cable from the switch to the new location

[Joe]

[trader4]

Has anyone ever wondered about the reasons for the boxes required to be accessible? I certainly agree that it is highly desirable and should always be done where practical. For example, it makes later trouble shooting easier.

However, in a case like this, what exactly is the big deal if the box that contains the splice were not accessible? For example, it doesn;t suddenly become a fire or safety hazhard, does it? It would seem to me if you were allowed to use a metal box and cover (to prevent driving a nail into it) it would still be fine, even if not accessible. And it would make some jobs a hell of a lot easier.

[Doug Miller]

The "big deal" is that, barring some sort of mechanical damage, faults almost occur in the wiring between boxes. Problems develop at junctions. That's why junctions need to be accessible.

[trader4]

And so what? It's very unlikely that any given box that has just a simple splice will ever develop a problem. And if it does, so what? Why can't you just deal with it then? In many cases, you can't just put an accessible box in because of the location. So, instead, you wind up rerouting the wiring, all the way back to the accessible end points, which can be a real headache. Now, I'd rather do that later, replacing the wire IF the inaccessible junction box did develop a problem, rather than always ahead of time, on the theory that someday in MIGHT require access.

[RBM]

The problem is that if it were "legal", it would be done all over as a lazy man's solution. I agree that a properly made splice isn't likely to cause a problem, and burying one in the wall is certainly not a fire hazard or every recessed light fixture would be a fire hazard as well. The real problem as I see it, is if the splice does go bad, you'd have no way to even guess at where the buried box is located

[Doug Miller]

You can't "just deal with it then" because if the junction box is concealed, you don't even know where it is.

Hey, don't argue with me about it -- argue with the NFPA. They're the ones who wrote the National Electrical Code, not me. I'm guessing they have a little better handle on electrical safety than either you or I do.

[Andy]

Andy writes: Because it needs to be available for inspection by the electrical inspector.....

Otherwise, any jackleg electrician wannabee would just twist a couple wires together and maybe put some electrical tape on it, and make a fire hazard...

The splice must be made in accordance with the electrical code, and , since an inspector isn't usually present when these things are done, it must be made available for inspection when he comes to sign off on the electrical work...

A LOT of rules are done like that...... Anything that is easy to take short cuts on instead of following safe practices has to be made available for inspection.... and that means it is accessible so the dude can look at it...

Andy in Eureka, Texas

[trader4]

If you are having work done and have a permit, they why can't the inspector inspect it before it's covered up? Not much different than the wiring that gets sheetrock put up over it, after which no one can see it either.

They can and are doing that already. In fact, IMO, not having an approved and easy way to do a splice that can be covered up is exactly what leads to the above. Like in the OP case, I wouldn't be surprised to find that they decide to just do an illegal splice, without any box, protection, etc., because the only legal way can be a major PIA. In many cases, it's not like it;s $5 and half an hour more work. And I fail to see the overwhelming need to have the box accessible.

No problem, I'm fine with that. Leave it available to be seen by the inspector. Once it passes, then cover it up, just like the cover plates go on everything else. What's the safety problem with that?

[ameijers]

Chuckle. I found a butt splice buried in the wall when I rewired my bathroom. Grounded romex feeding 2-wire. (at least he used shielded connectors under the tape.) Previous homeowner twit had hung the counter outlet off the switched fan/medicine cabinet circuit. (Via an open top box in the attic, with loose wire nuts and no strain reliefs, but I digress...) Ungrounded GFCI, which I dislike on principle. I got lucky, and was able to fish a fresh feed from an underutilized outlet string in the bedroom next door. (Lucky, because with the low overhead in the attic, and the old hard lumber, drilling a new hole to fish a wire from above was not an option.)

I'll likely be finding and fixing stupid stuff this guy did until I sell this place in a few years. Fully half the grounded outlets were wired backwards.

aem sends...

[ameijers]

A basic point being, you aren't wiring so YOU can fix it later, you are wiring so the poor SOB twenty years from now will have a clue what is going on so HE can fix it.

aem sends...

[Bob]

And, don't 'fess up on having done anything yourself when you do go to sell it (or if it burns down first(not to say that you are doing anything wrong at all) )! Unless you pulled a permit, and have ALL your work inspected, or are licensed, the insurance company will cite you as the cause of the fire.

[trader4]

You don't have to know where it is to deal with it. For example, in the extremely unlikely event that a light stops working on a line that happens to have a concealed junction box, and it's verified that there is no continuity between the switch and the light, then you just run a new wire. That's what you would do in any case, if you couldn;t see or trace the wire and had a problem.

The only difference is, if the concealed box were allowed, you could do the wire run someday, IF, the simple splice in the concealed box failed. The way it is now, you have to do it upfront, to meet code.

[Doug Miller]

"Just run a new wire". Often easier said than done, particularly in older homes -- and obviously much more difficult than repairing a failed splice.

And this makes life easier exactly how -- ?

Like I said, argue with the NFPA. They're the ones who wrote the NEC, and I suspect they have a little better handle on electrical safety than either you or I.

[trader4]

You obviously don't get it, because the difficulty of running a new wire is exactly the problem that allowing an inaccessible box would avoid. The point is since you are not allowed to have an inaccessible box, in many cases you are forced to do run a new wire right away. IF you were allowed to do a box, then hide it, there are many cases where you would have a simple solution, instead of being forced to run a wire.

Take the case of a wall that is going to be be covered with tile, but has an outlet that is no longer needed. If you could remove the outlet, splice, cover and hide, you would have an easy solution. Not having that option is what forces you to either put an ugly cover plate in the middle of the wall or run a new wire, regardless of how difficult that might be. And you have to run it today, not someday

30 years from now, IF the hidden splice were to come undone, which is a remote possibility.

Or even the case of the OP. He likely doesn't want a box with cover plate staring him in the face next to his new medicine cabinet. So, what's he gonna do? He will wind up having to run a new wire.

[Doug Miller]

No, I "get it" just fine. You're the one who is missing something: that if the boxes are accessible, there's no need to run new cables.

Look -- argue the point with the NFPA. They're the ones who made the rules, not me, and I'm sure they know a lot more about electrical safety than you do.

[ameijers]

(snip)

Or just go with small side sconces instead of a top light, or put another convenience outlet there. Great place to put one of those flat panel night lights, so you don't have to wake all the way up when you need to take a leak in the middle of the night. Women really like a dedicated hair dryer outlet with a hook right beside it. Another thought, if the wire comes up from below, is to put the junction box and the blank cover plate below the counter in the vanity. Yes, it is a PITA, but it shouldn't be that big a deal to come up with a workaround.

aem sends...

[Doug Miller]

Careful with the attributions, please... I didn't write that.