Electrical help needed

[hagopa]

Hi, I have recently purchased a new swimming pool heater, installed it next to the shed in the backyard so naturally had to get electricity to it from the main panel in the house. I have a stab-lok panel in the house so I got a 50 amp NC0250cp bracer that I installed in the house panel then connected the black wire and the Red wire to each pole of the breaker the white wire to the neutral of the panes and the Ground to the Ground I am using outdoor 6AWG wire. I got the wire outside underground and to the shed where I installed a new panel wired it up by connecting each Black and Reb to each main connector of the new panel the white to the neutral bar and the ground to the Ground bar I put in a 15amp single pole breaker for the pool pump and a 30amp breaker for the pool heater.

with my voltmeter I cam measure 120vac when I go across neutral and each Black and Red but when I measure across Black and Red I don't get

240vac I find that strange.

when 50amp breaker is on in the house and the 15amp breaker is on in the shed the pomp works well but I would like to see if the 240 VAC is ok before I connect up the pool heater.

Can you please help [e-mail]

[Richard J Kinch]

Whaddya get? At both ends of the run?

If you need to ask this, maybe you shouldn't be doing it yourself?

[Joseph Meehan]

Also how are you measuring the voltage? Are you using a modern digital meter?

[buffalobill]

[John]

If you don't get 240v, what do you get? If you get 0 v, it may mean your black and red are hooked up to the same hot.

[dpb]

That's my guess. Based on the "N" in the breaker number he gives, I'm guessing it's a "narrow" style not designed for the particular panel he has and isn't picking up but one side of the main buss bars...

[dpb]

[e-mail] wrote: ...

See comments elsewhere on the symptoms...

Did you do a load check to verify you have sufficient excess capacity in this panel to power another 50A subpanel? That's a significant load and a Stablok panel implies an older service since FPE went under (over those panels/breakers, basically, btw) quite some time ago you may be pushing the limits of your current service (no pun intended) by adding this large of a load from this existing panel.

I'm thinking this project could be worth getting an experienced electrician to come evaluate the situation and advise you on whether this is the proper way to get the power to the pool for the above reason.

As noted, with the limited information, I've provided a guess as to what could be the possible cause of the symptoms you describe elsewhere in the thread but think there's a larger issue here that's worth addressing.

[Pete C.]

Replace the Stab-Loc "incendiary device" a.k.a. panel before you burn down your house. Then hook up the new heater to a proper two pole breaker in a proper panel. My preference is for Square D QO panels, but most anything current would be better that the Stab-Loc waiting to burn the place down.

Pete C.

[chuckster]

Wiring is not a hobby, call a licensed electrical contractor. Sounds like you have a real "cluster fu@k" going on, especially with the Stab-lok panel. You are over you head and can easliy burn down your house or kill yourself and others. The WORSE thing here is (and nobody picked up on) is this is a swimming pool heater, and you did not mention electrical bonding of pool related equipment. Trust me I investigate this stuff for a living.

Pete C. wrote:

[dpb]

...

Actually, the Eaton-Cutler Hammer retrofit kit is normally the cheaper way to go. It uses the existing box and simply replaces the "innards". They have kits to fit virtually any box.

[hallerb]

Unless her Stab Locc panel is 200 amps she should just replace the entire thing.

FPE panels have breakers that dont trip, or never trip again after one overload.

adding a 50 amp pool heater? you probably dont have the capacity and should upgrade you service for you own safety

[dpb]

That's what the CH retrofit cabinet does (except for the outer box)...the cost savings is some on the material but mostly based on the shorter replacement time/less labor associated with changing out the components vis a vis ripping the whole box out and replacing it. This, of course, assumes that one is having it done professionally which is almost a universal recommendation for anyone who's asking for advice on usenet...

...

More precisely, FPE Stab-lok panels/breakers have had instances of such failures at a high enough rate to make replacement a viable consideration...

The _really_ bad thing in the story from my perspective is that apparently FPE actually went so far as to have falsified test data and filings to UL, etc., to get listings approved.

I haven't replaced all the FPE stuff here yet, but will eventually....which is how I discovered the CH retrofits.

[hallerb]

I havew a stab loc FBE panel; and saw a no trip once. I turned off whatr I THOUGHT was the breaker for the line I was working on..

As my usual safety practice I then shrted this line to make certain it was dead.

It wasnt and proceeded to burn and vaporize a wire. took out a switch too. found that later.

I replaced the breaker and then heard about the FPE problem

plan new 200 amp service this summer

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

my point about a new service for the OP

If shew has a 100 amp service and is adding a new 50 amp pool heater her service is undersized and is best replaced completely. just changing the guts of the panel isnt a good idea, a new panel will give her more slots etc.

Even if you could replace a 100 amp guts to a 200 amp the panel wouldnt have as many slots, a larger neutral bar and may well lack some ground rods or water meter jumper...

a full upgrade is likely better

[dpb]

[e-mail] wrote: ...

If you look at the datasheet for the retrofit kits, you'll see they include all of the above. The only thing you don't get new and up to date is the outer box itself.

Therefore, the only limitation is the physical size of the box as to whether it will fit or not and they make kits for essentially any box.

If it isn't large enough, obviously it has to be replaced. However, OP indicated there is/was sufficient room in the existing panel for another circuit which implies it's at least a possible option.

Have done several using these such as the church parsonage at considerably less expense than the full tearout/replacement.

[dpb]

dpb wrote: ...

But, there is a new cover plate and all to fit the new breakers so it looks just like a new one from the outside as well when you're done...

[hallerb]

Well older boxes were smaller when compared to today, and she appeared to be using thin breakers too...

In my case my 100 amp box is JAMMED, for cost isues I have thought about buying a 200 amp main box, with a extra 100 amp main breaker.

then replace the box but not the service line or meter can, and leave it 100 amps. then when theres more $ go ahead and replace the remaining components and install the 200 amp main breaker.

new service panels arent that expensive.

I do wonder with the OPs FPE if the grounding and bonding is current to todays standards espically critical with that pool...........

[dpb]

[e-mail] wrote: ...

I've already pointed out the cost savings aren't so much on the hardware but in labor and OP in this thread certainly ain't gonna' be doing this kind of upgrade him/herself...

[hallerb]

please address my point...

assuming she has a 100 amp panel, is upgrading a FPE 100 amp a good idea when adding a new major load of a electrical pool heater?

Theres no use replacing the guts just to find the main breaker trips...

plus the issue of good grounding and bonding with a swimming pool

[dpb]

...

As I've pointed out repeatedly, assuming the physical size is adequate (and OP has already indicated there was room available in the existing panel) one can select a larger main w/ a larger ampacity main as part of the retrofit kit. In essence, one no longer has an FPE panel at all.

Whether it would be a fit in the particular application is indeterminate from here, this asinine subthread started when I simply pointed out there is a neat way to replace the trouble-prone FPE panels besides a complete tearout which is potentially cheaper.

If the old box is surface mounted in an unfinished basement, there's no purpose in a retrofit kit. Assuming it is embedded in a finished area and does have physical capacity (and a lot of the FPE panels are plenty large enough, dimensionally and that assumption is as equally verifiable to be true in this case as that it isn't) the labor savings in the associated replacement and repair of ancillary finished area can save a sizable fraction of a replacement labor cost.

[hallerb]

Good point, around here most panels are surface mount, in garages and such.

By the time you replace the service drop, meter can and the guts just chanhing the panel is no doubt easier. plus around here many panels are rusty:(