I basically have a surge suppressor off my air conditioner breaker, which is 20 amps X 2 . Putting it on the breaker depends on the breaker and code. It protects the circuit, and affects all lines in the box, just as if it had it's own dedicated breaker. Surge supressor was about $40.-$50.
Greg
In addition to whole house, and many suppressers around the house on various lines, I have a suppressor plugged into the outlet at furnace, I don't want the board in there to fry. It's a simple inline jack from the shack.
Greg
Lightening is what Michael Jackson did to his skin. You mean lightning I think!!!
Copper all the way to the street is getting rare, that is why they added the supplemental electrode requirement to 250.53(D)(2)
There is also a requirement that we provide an intersystem bonding terminal for the other services to ground to.
250.94The best ground electrode is the rebar in your foundation but that needs to be installed in construction. It is required in Florida now in new construction because the rebar is required in the structural code so it is "available" when they pour. That is part of the footer inspection.
That is not really true if you are talking about the all metal water systems in days of old. The whole city is a grounding grid with miles of electrode in the dirt.
These days it is hard to find a new metal water pipe.
*So in your mind 16' of copper plated iron rod is a better ground than the copper pipe that runs from a house out to the street and is connected to a giant web of piping. *The primary purpose of a grounding electrode (Water pipe, ground rod, ground ring, ufer ground, copper plate, etc.) is for voltage stabilization and lightning protection.
Of course.
You may be confusing a proper electrical ground with the grounding of the plumbing system.
Sigh. A water pipe is not a grounding electrode. It may FUNCTION as one, but using a water pipe is not best practice.
As an aside, how can more than five things be a "primary" purpose?
Primary purpose is PROTECTION.
On 10/6/2012 7:35 AM, John Grabowski wrote: ...
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By current NEC requirements, "Yes". One is (properly installed) Code-compliant while the other (on its own) cannot be made so because it is expressly not allowed as the sole grounding system. This basic requirement goes as far back as the 1978 revision of NEC.
Before the days of plastic and other nonconducting plumbing materials it was allowed but is no longer approved by Code. There's a good chance that if nothing else there's a insulating connection at the meter and not necessarily jumpered any longer. And, if the inlet line is plastic as is now so common, even if the house is copper as soon as it transitions to the external line, "poof" goes the ground.
Now, _IF_ (the proverbial big if) there is no interruption from the grounding point back to earth, yes, a metal plumbing system can function as a grounding electrode but the point is that whether it _can_ doesn't mean it _should_ or is allowed.
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The key words there are "if present".
It certainly is _NOT_ part of NEC that there is _REQUIRED_ to be 10-ft of metallic water service pipe.
What is required is that any metal plumbing system that is present be bonded _TO_ the earthing system (since 1978) but as noted, a metal plumbing system of whatever length is NOT, by itself, Code-compliant (again, since 1978).
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Ground rods are the worst earthing electrode.
You are just confused.
A metal municipal water system will be a far lower resistance to earth than any other earthing electrode you will have a house.
It certainly is a good earthing electrode, which is why the NEC has required its use since time began.
The NEC requires the resistance to earth for a ground rod to be 25 ohms or less. Or install 2 and there is no requirement. What happens when you connect a hot wire to a 25 ohm-to-earth ground rod?
I have seen resistances to earth of 3 ohms and 0.1 ohms as typical for municipal metal water systems.
Water service pipe, minimum 10 ft metal in the earth, is *required* to be used as an earthing electrode, just as it has been since time began.
Bonding across the meter is *required*, just as it has been since time began.
Which is, of course, why a "supplemental" electrode is now required.
Not only is it allowed, it is *required*.
Only three electrodes are *required* to be used as earthing electrodes - if present.
One is a water service pipe (10 ft ...).
Another is a "concrete encased electrode" (commonly called a Ufer ground) which is required to be created in most new construction.
The earthing conductor required to connect to a ground rod (which is a crappy electrode)is #6. The earthing conductor required to connect to a "concrete encased electrode" is #4. The earthing conductor required to connect to a metal water service pipe goes up with the size of the electrical service and can be as large as 3/0.
Do you suppose there is a reason for that?
Perhaps this will explain:
"You've probably seen project requirements that call for the grounding of piping systems and exposed structural steel. Those requirements, although well intended, miss the mark. The stated intention of such requirements is nearly always the removal of dangerous voltage on specific types of metal parts in the event of a ground fault. These metal parts include exposed structural steel members, electrically conductive metal water piping systems, metal sprinkler piping, metal gas piping, and other metal piping systems. But these requirements fail to make that intention a reality. That's because you remove dangerous voltage on metal parts through bonding, not through grounding."
and
"The NEC (section 250-81 through 250-83) requires that the electrical system connected to all of the following, if available for grounding purposes: * metal frame of building * concrete encased electrode (rod, pipe, plate, braided wire) * ground ring and * metallic water pipe with 10 lineal feet in contact with earth
The NEC has noted that metal piping will corrode over time and possibly lose its continuity with the soil (i.e. ground) or be replaced by plastic pipe. Accordingly, should this occur, the NEC has mandated the 3 other paths to ground be utilized."
In other words, attaching a metal water pipe to an earth ground is used to protect the user from the plumbing, not to provide a ground for the electrical system. Using metal water pipe as an electrical ground is insufficient.
No source.
I am not fond of the term "grounding" because you may be talking about "bonding" or "earthing". Your quote has that problem. (The NEC has started to clarify which use is intended.)
The NEC has 3 electrodes that are *required* to be used as earthing electrodes (where present). One is metal water service pipe (10 ft...). Another, in general, is structural steel (because of its connection into the rebar systems in the concrete foundation).
Your source is incorrect - water pipe and structural steel *must* (in general) be used as earthing electrodes.
If they are connected as earthing electrodes they are also "bonded".
The correct list has electodes that may already be present in a building and does not include ground rings and everything after "concrete encased electrode".
Cite for corrode. Cite where water pipe has worse corrosion problems that ground rods.
The NEC has NOT mandated that "3 other paths" to earth be utilized.
The requirement to use water pipes as an earthing electrode is in a section on the earthing system and the electrodes to be used. It is in your list of required earthing electrodes, above.
You have bullsiht information and are using a bullsiht source.
(What a surprise.)
Of course not.
For at least 50 years the NEC has required a "supplemental" electrode for water pipe electrodes *if* the water service pipe was likely to be replaced by plastic. The 1978 change required a "supplemental" electrode on all new installations.
If there is a plastic water service, the metal water pipes in the building must be "bonded" to the electrical system. There are separate rules for "bonding".
But the basic requirement has not changed - if there is 10 ft of water pipe in the earth the pipe is *required* to be used (and connected) as an earthing electrode (not "bonded"). The earthing electrode is always a "system" which may be one electrode, or several may be required and others can be added. A metal water service pipe (10 ft...) is one of the electrodes that is *required* to be included.
If the water pipe is not included as an earthing electrode the installation is clearly not "code-compliant".
Sorry. I thought the material was righteous on its face. Evidently not. See:
"Grounding vs. Bonding - Part 10 of 12"
"Your source is incorrect..."
Giggle
Does not exactly satisfy your request, but of interest: "The NEC has noted that metal piping will corrode over time and possibly lose its continuity with the soil (i.e. ground) or be replaced by plastic pipe. Accordingly, should this occur, the NEC has mandated the 3 other paths to ground be utilized."
Yes it has. (See above)
I assume your "non-bullshit" source is your own dim remembrance of things past.
In the old house growing up, I started getting bit in the shower. Dad called electrician. Water meter strap was breaking contact. Back when the house was built, 1959, the box was at other end of house, tied to near water pipe. I don't think there was any other ground rod. After I had the box updated, guy installed ground rods at that end of house, and ran copper ground wire tall the way to water pipe in front of water meter. I'm sure that's how current house is wired.
Greg
What specifically in the above that Bud stated is incorrect?
"I am not fond of the term "grounding" because you may be talking about 'bonding' or 'earthing'. Your quote has that problem. (The NEC has started to clarify which use is intended.)"
Looking at the article I was right. The source talks about "grounding". What does the source mean by "grounding"? Might mean connecting branch circuit ground wire (which is how gas pipe is "grounded", at least for residential). Might mean just earthing. Water pipe and structural steel do need to be "bonded". That is not a problem, except that structural steel (usually) and metal water service pipe (always) must be used as an earthing electrode where there is an electrical service in the building. And if connected as an earthing electrode the metal is also "bonded".
The source incorrectly shows a "bonding" connection from the service to a metal water pipe, but the code reference (table 250.66) clearly shows this is a connection as an earthing electrode. "Bonding" rules are different.
Oh how funny. How about a logical argument?
Your source is wrong.
There are 2 separate issues.
One is water pipe. The NEC has required a *single* "supplemental" electrode since 1978 (as dpb writes) and since long before that in some cases. It does not require 3.
Second is that the NEC now requires 3 specific electrodes be part of the earthing system, if present.
Your source rather stupidly says the 3 paths are required as the supplemental electrode for water pipe when one of the paths is metal water service pipe. (And the other 2 paths may not exist.)
My "non-bullshit" source is the National Electrical Code.
"I am not fond of the term "grounding" because you may be talking about 'bonding' or 'earthing'. Your quote has that problem. (The NEC has started to clarify which use is intended.) "
Looking at the article that appears to be the problem. The source talks about "grounding". What does the source mean by "grounding"? Might mean connecting branch circuit ground wire (which is how gas pipe is "grounded", at least for residential). Might mean just earthing. Something else? Water pipe and structural steel do need to be "bonded". That is not a problem, except that structural steel (usually) and metal water service pipe (always) must be used as an earthing electrode where there is an electrical service in the building. And if connected as an earthing electrode the metal is also "bonded".
The source incorrectly shows a "bonding" connection from the service to a metal water pipe but the code reference (table 250.66) clearly shows this is a connection as an earthing electrode. "Bonding" rules are different.
It should have been a good source. It was partly correct, but did not (in this article) cover earthing electrodes. The NEC chapter on grounding is probably the most confusing one that is commonly used. IMHO a lot of that is confusion over what "grounding" is supposed to do in a particular instance. That is why I use "earthing", where appropriate.
Oh how funny
Your source is wrong.
There are 2 separate issues.
One is water pipe. The NEC has required a *single* "supplemental" electrode since 1978 (as dpb writes) and since long before that in some cases. It does not require 3.
Second is that the NEC now requires 3 specific electrodes be part of the earthing system, if present.
Your source rather stupidly says the 3 paths are required as the supplemental electrode for metal water service pipe when one of the paths is metal water service pipe. And the other 2 may not exist.
My "non-bullshit" source is the National Electrical Code.
(Apologies if this double posts.)
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