The answer in NJ would be yes, a permit is required.
That's a good example of where things go wrong. Only problem is that most of the dummies that would do the above, also wouldn't go get the permit either.
Locally there was an incident when house had a fire, it was blamed on basement electrical wiring which home owner did without permit. Insurance co. refused to pay out for the damage caused by the fire. Our city allows DIYs do the wiring and permit is only like 20 bucks. Inspector will check things twice at the beginning and at completion. In my case he came down to basement look at one outlet box, asked my wife what I am. She said, EE working for Honeywell. Then he did not look any further. Peace of mind is the thing in case of unexpected.
33 years ago when househunting prior to buying our current home, we saw SEVERAL homes with the basements wired with inappropriate wiring - including 3 wire extention cords, and outdoor telephone wire (2 copper coated steel conductors arranged like the old twinlead television cable. So yes, inspection is a GOOD thing - even though it's a royal pain for those of us who know what to do and how.
Obviously permits and inspections didn't prevent what you saw from happening. Gee, I wonder why?
The fire department usually tries to determine the cause of the fire.
Sounds like the people who get permits are the ones most likely to be doing a good quality job?
One time, I saw extension cord wire used to supply power to condensing units in a refrigeration system. Got to wonder. Musta been out of Romex or BX that day?
- . Christopher A. Young learn more about Jesus .
Nobody said requiring permits and inspections would stop people from doing stupid things like that. I just said inspections were a good idea. IF the guy called for the required inspection, it woud be caught.
That is certainly the optimistic view but when your typical municipal inspector leaves the shop in the morning with 30 inspection tickets spread out over the whole county, there is a limit to what they actually "inspect". A lot is taken on faith. It is one reason why I was not a municipal inspector. When I was working for the state, I had no real time constraints and I could poke around a lot more.
Personally I think "owner/builders" should be paying double for their permits and get more scrutiny/assistance from the inspector. Most homeowners would not agree and they seem to enjoy "getting over" on the inspector, even if their safety is at stake.
I recently had an electrical panel replaced and solar panels put on the roof. The city inspector came out three times. Once to check the electrical before the stucco was replaced. Once to check the water barrier and wire before the stucco was put in. Once to check the stucco repair. He was very thorough though I had to explain a couple of things to him. 1. that it was a 200A panel with a 150A main breaker so the wires from the pole were actually sufficient for 150A. 2. That the secondary panel for the solar could be connected directly to the bus bar because it was within sight of the main panel.
I did find one thing that the idiots replacing the panel screwed up and I need to get them to come back out.
In many towns it is the opposite. Homeowners pay half what a business pays.
Yep, it always surprised me how little the inspectors actually looked at the work we had done. Still, if the areas they saw were done well, the odds of everything else being up to the same level are good.
When we built our garage the new female inspector showed up in dress shoes. She didn't want to get her shoes dirty on the muddy construction site, so she just looked at a distance from the driveway. :)
In contrast, the female inspector who did the final inspection on our house really got into it. She climbed under the house and crawled all around the crawlspace to make sure plumbing, insulation, vapor barrier, etc. had been done correctly. She really impressed me.
Permits should be priced by the job, not by the status of the person performing the work. Just because you're a "professional" doesn't necessarily mean you'll be doing things correctly. In fact, an owner/builder (one who cares anyway) will probably make a stronger effort because it is their own home.
I had several inspectors comment I should come teach the contractors how to do things properly. I have no formal construction training, I just study each task as much as possible before starting and try to go above code minimums. All of my inspectors were great to deal with, and helpful with any questions I had. I built good relationships with several of them.
We built our house and garage ourselves and never had a single correction notice.
Anthony Watson
The fact at the end of the day is most code compliance by the trades is simply what they do as common practice, not that they actually could cite the code.
A trade who builds essentially the same house, day to day will end up doing them all pretty much the same. Once he has it, he has it. The trade should also have all of the right materials, where a homeowner is more tempted to use what they have or what they find at the store. A homeowner is doing some things for the first time and the violation he makes may not be something an inspector would even think about so they may not look, particularly if they are pressed for time. The homeowner is also more likely to ask more questions. That is not a bad thing but time is money.
If the building department is running tight, the inspector could simply tag anything they don't like and make up the money in reinspection fees. I guarantee, I can find some technical violation on just about any job, pro or amateur. Inspectors usually do try to actually identify hazards, not violations.
When I worked for the state we had inmates, park rangers and handymen, doing electrical work. My inspections always took longer than an inspection for a trade. It didn't really matter because I was not on any real time constraints and it was all "funny money" between state agencies but it was clear the permit fees should have been higher for :"in house" work if I was actually justifying my time.
Agreed, though routine can often turn to laziness or cutting corners. As you said, time is money, and most will do whatever they can to save time. Also, someone who builds the same thing day after day may not keep up on recent code changes. They just build it the way they've always done it.
I admit I am probably the exception when it comes to homeowners, but I always study both the code and the common practices to do the best job I can. It's my home and I want to do the best job possible. You know the saying "if you want it done right, do it yourself". :)
That was one of the more frustrating things we encountered when we built our house. You would think items required by code would be widely available in stores. But I had to order many items online because the local stores didn't carry them, especially for plumbing. Even many of the specialty electrical and plumbing supplies didn't have some of the items we needed.
I also saw many items in stores that are not allowed by codes, like female threaded PVC fittings (they tend to split open and leak).
When I remodeled my in-laws house a few years ago, codes had changed to require tamper resistant electrical outlets. Naturally, I had a difficult time finding them at the home centers. I eventually found one small box hidden down on a bottom shelf. :) That was one of the few corrections I had when remodeling my in-laws house. I just did things the way I had always done using the outlets that were commonly available. I got lazy and didn't take the time to research the recent codes.
I remember when our first electrical inspector showed up. He hopped out of his truck, grabbed his clipboard, and started walking to our house. When he looked down at the clipboard and saw we had wired our house ourselves you should have seen his face drop. :) He went from happy/serious to "oh my god", like I had just ruined his day. All before he stepped foot in the house. :)
I still remember his first comment when he came through the door, "lets talk about electricity", like I knew nothing about it. I chuckled, no problem, I'll play along maybe I'll learn something. About two minutes into the inspection his face lit up, he was smiling again, and he kept saying things like "nice", "very good", etc. He gave everything the OK, then he talked for some time about how poorly most of the professional jobs were done in the expensive McMansions he usually inspects.
Nice guy, but I'll never forget that first moment when he arrived. :)
The only inspector I ever had an issue with was the electrical inspector for my in-laws house. He always arrived angry and irritated and I swear he was determined to find SOMETHING wrong with our work. I tried to keep things polite and upbeat and gladly fixed whatever he had an issue with. We got through that job fine but his attitude made things so much worse than they needed to be. I hope he went on to do something he enjoyed more.
Anthony Watson
Mass market retailers are not really going to care much about codes. They stock what sells and that is going to be the 49 cent bulk packaged device, not the $2.50 TR device.
They also have to deal with staggered adoption of the various codes. Florida is just adopting the 2011
I think there is a certain amount of burn out in this profession. Some things can be interesting but most of it is mind numbing repetition, particularly if you are only doing 1&2 family. That is what made my state job interesting. I was never sure what would be next. If the state built it, I inspected it. Things that seem boring are sometimes the most interesting. A toll booth is a good example. There is really a lot going on there but most of it is under the road. (6-10 feet under the road)
I got the impression most of my inspectors really enjoyed coming out to see our projects. It was something different in their daily routine, and since I usually had the same inspectors they had fun watching our progress. Especially when I would implement suggestions they recommended.
My favorite inspector reminded me of an English butler and had built his own house years earlier. So he really seemed to take an interest in what we were doing.
We heard a lot of horror stories about dealing with inspectors, but we really had good experiences with all of them. Great memories...
Sadly, those days are probably behind me. I don't forsee any major construction projects in my future.
Anthony Watson
Most inspectors are just interested in finding a job well done. They can be very helpful. Like any profession with authority, there will be a couple that like to show how important they are.
When I lived in a large east coast city, you always had an envelope to hand the inspector when you showed him the permit.
And how much were you supposed to put in that envelope?
For the work we were doing, mostly kitchen rebuilds, $20 was enough. That was 1970 money.
I had electrical work done by a company whose license was pulled by the city of Chicago. A garage fire across the alley took out a leg of my service (30 amp fused). No longer code. Their license was pulled because they wouldn't "work with" the inspectors. They simply had licensed friends pull the permits. Perfectly legal. The founder of the company (he had 11 sons working for him!) was wearing a wire for the feds. Mike Royko wrote a column about it when it was over. Trouble is too many electrical contractors were "working with" the inspectors. I got so pissed at one of them I had to chase him off my property. He gave me a price about twice as much as the guy he scared me away from, which I was willing to pay because I didn't want inspector trouble. $1000 versus $450. He told me they "bought their permits" when I told him his price was twice as high. I called the honest guy back because I thought he was honest and told him I was disappointed he hadn't told me that they were unlicensed and "bought their permits." He didn't argue, but told me they do legit work. I said sorry, I was going with the licensed company. The next day an inspector came by and found two minor violations in the basement he said to fix. He pointedly told me he wasn't going upstairs. Twice. I had a circa 1920's two-flat and it was all out of code. The day after that the guy I was going to hire came back to finalize our business. He wanted to check out all floors. I told him what the inspector said. About ten times until I had enough of his bullshit about his "reputation" and sent him packing. Had to practically chase him to his Gold Wing. We were both cussing. Went back in and called the first guy. I just told him the job was his. When he came to do the work he said "Thought I lost you." I told him about the bullshit the other guy was trying to feed me. He explained how the permitting worked. Worked out well. Him and about 5 of his brothers knocked it out fast. Also put in about 6 wall switches at $25 per. I did the plastering and painting. I didn't have enough money to pay him and he said pay me when you can. I was between jobs. Think it was about 1982. He got paid fast. He told me later about the federal investigation when he returned some camping books he had borrowed. Remember books? Same inspector came back and okayed the work. He didn't go upstairs.
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