Copper pipe sanity check, please

[Nil]

I need to replace a water shut-off valve below my kitchen sink. I see that valves come made to fit on either 1/2" or 5/8" pipe. When I measure the copper intake pipe with my (not very accurate) caliper it measures .66, which is a little over 5/8". I think I read somewhere that "1/2 inch" refers to the inside diameter, and that the outside diameter is closer to 5/8. True? No?

So, what do I have, 1/2" or 5/8" copper pipe? I'm thinking 1/2" because it's more common, and if it were 5/8" the outside diameter might be greater than .66".

Also, Home Depot has valves with Shark Bite connectors which don't require compression fittings. Are those things reliable?

[Dean Hoffman]

>

[Ed Pawlowski]

You have 1/2" copper

1/2 OD 0.625 ID 0.545

Sharkbite fittings work well.

[Nil]

On 06 Jun 2021, Dean Hoffman [e-mail] wrote in alt.home.repair:

Good summary, thanks. Apparently I have 1/2" L-series pipe.

[Nil]

On 06 Jun 2021, Ed Pawlowski [e-mail] wrote in alt.home.repair:

Thank you! I was going to buy two valves and return one, but I think you're right.

The Sharkbite version will save me some work and uncertainty. I'm not good with those compression ring fittings.

[gfretwell]

"Pipe" is specified by the nominal ID. (the OD remains the same for each nominal size) "Tubing" is measured by the OD fairly accurately.

1/2" copper PIPE is about 5/8 OD. The ID will vary by the "schedule/type" of the pipe. Thicker walls result in a smaller ID. The OD has to be the same so the fittings work.

[Scott Lurndal]

Usually, but not always. For example, CPVC vs. PVC.

CPVC is measured by O.D., which makes its sizing similar to hard copper. PVC is measured by I.D., which makes its sizing similar to iron pipe.

[gfretwell]

That isn't exactly true either. CPVC has the same dimensions as the corresponding copper pipe. (1/2" is 5/8"OD) It works with the same shark bites

PCV has the dimensions of galvanized or black iron pipe. If it is threaded, galvanized fittings work. (usually only found in schedule 80)

[Tekkie©]

On Sun, 06 Jun 2021 20:47:52 -0400, Nil posted for all of us to digest...

1/2" No, IMO I don't like them. Do you store stuff in the cabinet? Does it ever slam against the pipes? Others may disagree.

[Marilyn Manson]

The question was not whether or not you like them, the question was "Are those things reliable?" The answer to that is Yes, otherwise they wouldn't be approved for behind the wall use by the Uniform Plumbing Code, the International Plumbing Code and the National Plumbing Code of Canada.

In addition, the International Association of Plumbing and Mechanical Officials listing states that the product ?can be utilized in underground applications and as manufactured joints without access panels.?

That's good enough for me.

Separate question: Are you OK with stuff banging against compression fittings but not push-to-fit fittings? If so, are you aware that SharkBite fittings are designed to rotate on the pipe while a compression fitting is fixed? Given the option, I'd rather have SharkBite fittings get knocked around than compression fittings. At least they are smart enough to get out of the way. ;-)

[Nil]

On 08 Jun 2021, Marilyn Manson [e-mail] wrote in alt.home.repair:

The cabinet has enough space in it that stuff doesn't usually knock against the pipes, although it could happen, of course.

I didn't realize that the Sharkbite fittings were still rotatable after installation. I did notice in the one video I watched that it seemed to move a little, but I guess I figured that it would stay in place once everything was settled in. I kind of like the idea of the valve being firmly fixed in place, but in practice, once I install it it's not likely to move unless I'm turning the handle.

[gfretwell]

Sharkbites are good as long as you expect to have an O ring last. If you have ever seen one get hard and brittle, think about that inside a wall. Just the fact that it is code legal doesn't really mean much. 1350 alloy Aluminum wire was legal in the wall for 30 years. Then it wasn't.

[Marilyn Manson]

Why was 1350 de-coded, so to speak?

[Marilyn Manson]

Forgot to mention: Not all O-rings are created equal.

Forgot to ask: What is your actual personal opinion of using SharkBite fittings inside a wall (or underground)?

[Marilyn Manson]

The rotation of the fittings is actually a very convenient feature.

There is no need to line up your elbows, tees, shutoffs, etc. during installation. Just pop them on and rotate them until they point in the direction that you need them to.

Granted, they are more expensive, so I sweat where I can and use SharkBites mostly in tight spots, like inside a cabinet or up in a joist bay. I'd rather sweat than use compression fittings but if sweating is inconvenient, I'll use SharkBites without hesitation.

[Ralph Mowery]

From what I understand many houses were set on fire by it. The stuff has a habit of loosing up under the screws and creating hot spots.

[gfretwell]

That was the infamous "aluminum wire" that got so much scary press in the 70s. It was originally developed for overhead service, distribution and transmission. It turned out to have to much expansion and it was too brittle to use in small conductors. When they started using more malleable AA8800 alloys and devices that can deal with that expansion rate the code reflected that change (1975), in effect outlawing the 1350 wire.

[gfretwell]

It is still an O ring. You better be sure there are no burrs on the pipe. These things remind me of Polybutylene pipe. That was all the rage, legal, easy to use and fast to install, until it started failing.

I wouldn't use them at all. I know how to sweat pipe. If I couldn't use a torch (fire hazard), I would use a compression fitting or a flare.

[Nil]

On 08 Jun 2021, Marilyn Manson [e-mail] wrote in alt.home.repair:

It is super-cramped in this cabinet. I can't really fit my shoulders in there, which leaves me trying to do the work with arms fully extended. Very uncomfortable and fatiguing. I assume that most of the plumbing was done before they installed the cabinetry. I think Sharkbites will make the job a hell of a lot easier and faster.

[gfretwell]

The number of actual fires that burned houses down was pretty low but the system worked in the sense that there were plenty of scary looking receptacle "close calls" where there was a fire but it was mostly contained by the box. There is still an argument that workmanship was as big a contributor as the wire itself but it was clear a steel binding screw had different thermal characteristics than aluminum wire. This is certainly not a wiring method for Harry Homeowner to be screwing with if they don't understand the issues. The Co/Alr device specified in the 75 and up code uses a different alloy screw that tracks the aluminum better. The head is bigger to accommodate the larger wire size and most have serration to give the wire a better grip. By the time they fixed the problem, aluminum had such a bad reputation it never caught on again. There never was a problem with lug type terminations see on larger wire sizes and on most large devices the lug is aluminum anyway. Studies have shown aluminum wire in an aluminum lug performs better than copper but not enough to be significant. The studies also show, anti-oxidant paste doesn't really do much but it makes people feel better. The code only requires it if the manufacturer has it in their "requirements" (not recommendations) so it really isn't going to be required very often. I still know 2 people with aluminum wired houses that are not having problems 50 years later. Their secret, it was installed well and nobody screwed with it.