Freon, or the new stuff? (2023 Update)

[Stormin Mormon]

Who has used both R-22 and R-410a. Is the world experienced enough to tell? Is the new stuff any good?

[Steve]

Doesn't make any difference if its installed correctly, and charged correctly. The biggest difference is the new 15SEER R410a systems that I install use almost literally half the energy to run than the old 10SEER systems that I have been replacing.

[PaxPerPoten]

Could much of that energy saving be attributed to double sized Evaporators and much larger condenser coils? ;-p Given the fact that 10 SEER is less then 14 SEER. If in the middle of the transition of the old cooling gases to the new cooling gases it had been found there was nothing wrong with the old ///Do you really think we would be using the new stuff? Maybe for the massive profit the manufacturers make..But I wonder at our end..How far this foolishness will really go before someone dumps Al Gores body in a lake of real toxic waste?

[Steve]

And the compressors are smaller, the refrigerant charge is much less than R22... somewhere around 1/2 as much. The liberal use of ECM motors plays a part in it also, as do all of the built in safeties and controls.

4 ton heat pump.... 10SEER R22 scroll compressor measured amp draw is 18 - 22 amps... same system in R410a with a scroll compressor, measured amp draw is only around 12 - 13 amps....

Much higher efficiencies with the new stuff, the new stuff is *very* quiet,

10 year parts warranty, 10 year compressor warranty, and 5 year unit replacement warranty

I dunno.... my profit margins are up significantly, and my customers with the new systems utility bills are 30 - 50+% less than what they were before I installed the new system(s).

explain to me again where the down side is??

[Steve]

You need to get the proper tools and learn how to charge by subcooling/superheat long before you ever touch an R410a system.

[PaxPerPoten]

Sorry Steve, But I just am not impressed with over priced equipment that serves less of a lifetime. The whole cooling gas Ponzi scheme is a sick joke. Of course it gave a shot in the arm to the Industry. Folks bitch about bank bail outs..What the Hell do you think Government rebates in our Industry are? I am disgusted that I have no choice but to go along with this travesty. I love new technologies..But this is an out and out expensive scam.

[Steve]

yeah, and you bitched and moaned when they switches to unleaded gasoline, and put computers in cars so you couldn't work on it yourself anymore too. Nothing is built to last anymore. There isn't anything you can *DO* about it... kwitcherbitchin and deal with it.

[Steve]

Exactly how cold is that beer can?? .... btw, that doesn't work with TXV systems.

[default]

I live in NC and have never had any air conditioning (~20 years). I put in a 18,000 BTU R410A mini split system with an SEER of 17 and got my first power bill today (system in use 35 days, billing period 32 days) and my power consumption is exactly the same as it was last year for the month - to a kilowatt.

Uses about the same amount of total power as the two fans it replaces, but it's a heck of a lot more comfortable.

I also got one of the Black and Decker "Whole House Power Monitors." list price is $99 sold for $20 on Amazon - attaches to the meter on the side of the house and reads the wheel or flashing light, nice toy IMO. Transmits the results to the inside readout.

It shows the blower on the inside unit using under 100 watts. When the compressor kicks in, it lollygags at ~500 watts for a few seconds then quickly ramps up to as much as 1,600 watts for a minute or two, then settles back at 300-600. The compressor cycles completely off - most days more off than on.

Kitchen, living room - and some nights the bedroom too.

[.p.jm.]

Nifty. Needs to get me one.

Tks.

[PaxPerPoten]

Actually we burned white gas long before it was reinvented. My cattle chasing model A used it as it was cheaper. All our small farm/Ranch engines used white gas. The Maytag Washing machine ran on it. The Grain elevators ran on it. It also made a good emergency fuel for the lamps when the kerosene barrel got low.

Actually I do work on them and did have a hand in the technology that Rockwell Research put into them in the early days. Matter of fact I have a couple of Chrysler Body module computers that I am repairing the +-

5VDC supplies in for friends. Beyond that..I do believe we have overdone the computer bit for Vehicles. You should take a look at the new system in the new Kenworth and Volvo Trucks. You are aware that GM will start making shutoff chips in all their cars? That a\ought to be fun for the hackers.. Shut all the cars down on the Freeway system at Rush hour.

Well..I used to milk a good vehicle for 120,000 miles.. Now I can get

250,000 and more..And that has nothing to do with the computer systems. Tires were good for 16-20,000 miles. Now they are warranted to 70,000 miles

I can't..But I am watching our valiant leaders to their best to bring the whole damned world back to the stone age. I think they have achieved that pretty much in the middle east that was living in the Middle ages.

I am counting the days until Pheasant season, so I can go out and Kill something. They do eat good too.

[PaxPerPoten]

I forgot to mention that the software for analyzing vehicle computers is open source and can be gotten almost anywhere on net. You can then install in your laptop. There is an adapter connector available ..also at several locations for the laptop to vehicle computer hookup.

and did have a hand in the technology that

[PaxPerPoten]

It is hardly too strong to say that the Constitution was made to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but *They mean to govern*. They promise to be good masters, *but they mean to be masters*. Daniel Webster

[default]

Amazon has two venders carrying it. Both have free shipping, one is $24.99 the other $20.95.

Get on line and check the meters it is compatible with, there are several they say it won't work with.

Meter compatibility: My meter has a little transparent pip on the inside of the meter at the top pointing to the sky, my wife's house has one pointing front, right hand, lower. Both work. Both electronic (no wheel)

Be a lot better if they published the model number of the meters it works with.

Cute design - you press the reset button on the meter adapter and it searches for a wheel and uses a retro-reflector type of IR sensor (beams light on the wheel and looks for a change in brightness), failing that it looks for a pulse of IR light (which is used by the electronic meters for calibration). The sensor (and sensor arm) are physically configurable to read either type of meter.

It reads kilowatts with 100 watt resolution. You can program it to read in dollars and will also adapt to time of day usage and different billing tiers (up to three) levels.

It can be "tared" - to read power in dollars or watts from the moment you press "tare" to the moment you clear tare.

The radio link is reasonably good. There's one outside wall and two inside walls to mine and it can loose "sync" if I move it ten feet away but works to 40 feet (inside unit goes to sleep when it looses sync)

That's a hassle, because of the way it works. You press "reset" on the outside unit while the inside unit is waiting for "I.D." (so multiple units won't cross talk or interfere on something like a multi

-family dwelling - each meter transmitter has it's own ID code).

Now that I know where it works, there's no problem, but it took some doing, and I lost 30 KWH from the meter reading when it lost sync.

Fresh batteries do make a difference.... I may spring for something better for the outside unit (like rechargeable lithium - if it will work).

[default]

I may not know shit about air conditioning but I know a lotta shit about beer (I brew my own; for over 14 years now).

Mine has to be "ice cold" suspended in ice water, with floating chunks of the stuff. Eggsacly 32F.

Down in Puerto Rico I had a refer set just below the "triple point of water." Open a bottle of liquid commercial beer and watch the ice crystals form about the neck and chase down into the bottle. Perfect.

Doesn't work with homebrew - I like "body" (slime, or "mouth-feel" in amateur brewer's speak - protein). Body equals foam and "head retention." Set the refer at the perfect temp., and foam rolls out of the bottle.

I make something called "Lawnmower Pilsner" for the summer. Almost no body - indistinguishable from American Beer except it has some taste. More like champagne; lottsa bubbles to tickle the nose, but not the real thing.

You guys don't stay "on topic" on this group do you?

I like a cold porter or stout for breakfast - after kayaking at 4 AM and then cleaning and feeding the animals, watering the garden, dumping litter boxes type of chores. By 8 AM I'm wide eyed and bushy- tailed and feeling no pain.

BEER! It's not just for breakfast.

Wine women and song.

What sick f*ck invented religion?

[Grumpy]

It depend on application and type of compressors in use? in cooling capacities can be large differences!

[mal]

Funny every more efficient home AC I bought in the last 20 cost me more to run, current draw is irrelevant if it takes three time as long to cool the same air.