Good points all. I think one *must* study the social history of tribes and indigenous peoples to understand what they ate and how they survived. Study the area in which you will find yourself when the downturn begins. What works in Australia may not work here in the plains of the us or the steppes of Siberia. People throughout history have adapted to what is available to them, but for the most part, at least in our macmodern world, this knowledge is gone.
Eating locally takes on a much more important meaning when one considers that there may not be input from areas beyond your particular region.
I willing to learn but I am a long way from bookshops so how about telling me (briefly) what I might learn from it and your particular point relevant to this thread.
Let's see. Gouged by the oil companies (record profits). Consolidation and subsidizing of food production (Cargill, Archer Daniel Midlands, Dow). Historic foreign debt and a total American debt of $161,287 per man, woman and child. Information, mostly controlled by 10 corporations, that is manufactured to generate consent (Iraq had no-thing to do with
9/11 or WMDs).
Debtor countries required to follow strict rules to repay debt, reduction of social programs for health and safety, repression of trade unions, and as in Chile and Argentina, martial law.
We have done it to others and the chickens are coming home to roost.
Who you going to believe? Your President and his gang or your own lying eyes?
OK then how does reducing stock over winter relate to raising beef? What proportion of your stock go to market at less than 12 months? I don't see what you are getting at.
OK
My comments were not restricted to Australia and there are many places here and overseas where a crop could replace pasture.
Are you claiming that if things get tough as in our doomsday scenario we will be able to go right on eating as much meat as we do now? This paragraph and your later comments suggest that you will answer no. In which case we agree.
Remember, I was commenting on the article - this is not about the age at which we sell our beasts.
The author of the article wrote that the best thing (and I'm paraphasing so you see what I'm on about) post oil would be to be a veggie because "vegetable production requires far less land than animal production. Even the pasture land for a cow is about one hectare, and more land is needed to produce hay, grain, and other foods for that animal." and "of animals is not easy" and "The third problem is that of cost: animals get sick, animals need to be fed, animals need to be enclosed, and the bills add up quickly. Finally, vegetable food requires less labor than animal food to produce; less labor, in turn, means more time to spend on other things"
Basically most of that is rot and/or assumes that animals are fed on grain/hay or 'other foods'.
If we were immediately tossed into a post oil world, I'd keep our cattle. They are easy to raise (unlike his thoughts on that - occasionally one will meet its maker through natural causes but that is seldom). They can be raised purely on grass because we don't like in a climate where they have to be put in a barn and fed over winter (thus no need to grow food for them) and they'd be a good thing to own where syntheic products like vinyl and plastic is no longer available. And sometimes they'd also be 'meat' but really they'd be too useful to just be 'meat'.
My real quibble with the article was that the guy seemd to have a very limited view of what would happen in a post oil world. He, and many other people, don't seem to know where event he most basic things that would make life worth living (like soap and light) would come from in such a scenario. I've always been fascinated by how people lived pre electricity and pre oil. I think the worst thing would be getting proper clothing.
Yes it could BUT most countries these days are becoming less and less capable of supporting themsleves in food production. Oz is still one of the lucky ones but if we keep going the way we are with appallingly cheap imports then it won't be long before we are in the same boat as much of the rest of the world.
Yep we do agree on the fact that there will be reduced meat eating. But if we had rabbits then that would be a different thing altogether. I still remember pre battery hen days when chook was a feast day food and I was born and raised on a poultry farm.
Yes it is eaten but I have never mastered the art of cooking it and don't want to do so. It is a very low fat meat and as you would know, marbling in meat makes it tender. I'd rather eat less top quality beef than try to eat any of the roos round here, or buy roo.
And are delicious! Also have good fibre if one chooses the right breeds.
That is why I was so surprised that it wasn't mentioned in the article. I'd hate to see what hybrids would produce when/if the manure hits the fan - might be OK for the first year at a pinch, but then knowing about the need for distances between crops and true to type seeds would be vital.
Ummmmm. I don't think I ever want to eat anything the Aboriginal people ate except honey from native bees. Roo doesn't appeal to me so snake and lizard is right off the agenda. Hunter gatherer lifestyle would not be my first preference for native peoples food.
Yes it is. I'm always amused when I read posts from the boys (and I do mean boys) in the survivalist ngs. I always think to myself that they probably don't own a handkerchief between them and the thought of owning a metal buket would never cross their collectivley small minds. It all about who has the biggest and best weapon.
I dunno. Mel Gibson in his younger days was very easy on the eyes. With my luck, I'd only come across the mutants.
I read a very interesting article today about the predictions for Global warming.
It wasn't online but I have looked up a cite which may possibly interest you.
In brief, the article says that climate scientists agree that a raise in temperatures should be confined to a max of 2 degrees but most scientists had now recognised that this figure was already beyond what could be achieved - more likely a rise of 3 degrees or more was most likely. Even a
1 degree rise would result in loss of a third of fresh water from the earth's surface and Australia's Barrier Reef was doomed to die. A rise of 2 degrees would result in Greenland losing its ice and thus raising sea levels and more heat waves in Europe where the 2003 heat wave cost 35K lives and loss of production in the order of $12B. A 3 degree increase would result in carbon sequestration that currenly happens in the soil would be thrown into reverse and carbon dioxide would be released into the air. 2-3 degrees would result in loss of most of the Amazon rainforest and so it went on......
We feed grain to ruminants who aren't equipped to eat it. We have to medicate them to stave off infection in thier rumen - the only reason it's somewhat suiccessful is the fact that they're killed before the infection actually kills them. We won't even get into the feeding of animal byproducts to them - remember, they're herbivores, they aren't supposed to eat animal protein.
The whole concept is too complicated to explain here (how food animals are fed, the process, if done naturally, really isn't), If you're interested (and you should be) about our food supply you need to try to get your hands on a copy.
We'd certainly have less of it. I'm only one generation away from when many rural people (like our old neighbour) just had the clothes they stood up in, and only very occasionally took off a layer to wash it. When adult-sized clothes wore out they were cut down and made into childrens clothes, or unravelled and re-knitted. Wool and linen fabrics could last for decades.
The second biggest home fabric-source in Scotland, after wool, was flax crops grown for linen. I've also seen a very strong soft fabric very like linen, made the same way, from nettles.
I agree, and was speaking more about regional climate issues that determined what crops they did raise and storage issues and the like. Native Amercians relied upon maize, beans, and squash, all which stored well and were quality sources of nutrition. Supplemented with whatever meat was available.
Yeah, the boys in MS are not too helpful anymore. During the run-up to Y2K, there was a lot of good info posted there and I saved some of it. Manuals dealing with water purification and the like. Stored a lot more info in the meatware.
dire than we are being led to believe.
This month's National Geographic was all over the global warming issue, as well as the biofuel issue. The map insert dealt as well. National Geographic has been devoting a lot of research, ink and electrons to climate change.
Here are online links to the issue and articles.
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as if more and more people are at least acknowledging this, except the friggin' morons that have hijacked this country.
One quick question. What are some reliable sources for news in your country, region, etc? I know less about Australia than I thought.
Harvest is always hard. This year is no different in that respect. Six day weeks and ten hour+ days, really takes the wind out of your sails. Who ever thought up the idea of the "romance of wine making" should be drowned in a vat. In Europe, each region grows a couple of different types of grapes. They harvest for 2 weeks, throw a party, and go home. Here in Northern California, we have been going at it for about six weeks now. When it is over, everyone will collapse in an ecstasy of unconciousness. Because we grow everything, we have early ripeners like chardonnay and late ripeners like syrah. It even appears that the harvest may be over early, in a couple of weeks, instead of grinding on to the first of November when rain will bring "la pointe finale" to this madness.
Getting back to the thread, it is to be hoped when we cruise past "peak oil", cheap carbs, and cheap meat, we may get our health back. Hopefully we will see adult on-set diabetes as a thing of the past. I can easily afford to lose 30 to 40 lbs. Maybe, one day, we, who can store food as fat, will be the healthy ones again.
Of course we may get the same results in a less bucolic fashion, if the pirates of Wall Street have their way.
Long day. Time to go out to the garden and throw the frisbee for Beau, the McNabb. Lilly, the shepherd seems to have fallen in love with a silicon bung, which dances away from her when she drops it. Wish JoeSB could be here to enjoy the spectacle.
You never did overcome the hubris implied in the question of planting next year's crop, Charlie. I'm sure we'll get to it eventually. Keep your pots and ladles handy. This may be a rough one.
I wonder if we could get Kucinich and Paul to run on the same ticket? Everyone else seems beholden to the "man".
If you mean News (as in what journalists think we should know) the ABC isn't too bad. Governments of all persuasions try to shut them up so they can't be too bad.
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As for climate and crops etc the gov agencies are good. Like
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Take care that some like the last are State based (there are only 8 if you count territories) and Oz is a big place so what goes in one State might be quite different to another.
David, I suspect that you wouldn't find this book a lot of use given that you are in Oz and the practices which apply here are very different to those in the US. The lot feeding here is for a very short time and is often combined with grass feeding anyway.
Yes but the thing that occurs to me in this post apocalyptic fantasy game, is that fleece would disappear. I love being able to throw it into the washing machine. Mind you, I still wear enormous quantities of 'real' fibre like wool but I do have to hand wash it.
I'm only one generation away from
Yep. I can also relate to that.
And of course we have hemp fibre these days. But the worst thing that I find is that as a sewer (although I notice that Americans seem to caller this a 'sewist' and for good reason) it is just impossible to get quality fabric today that used to be available in the early 60s. Its there but at the most extortionate prices. I was looking for a good quality linen to make a shirt. The only fabric I found of the quality I wanted was $220/metre!!!! It was for embroidery and would have been bought in lots of about 20cm square.
Well the US is blessed in many ways with less marginal land/climate positive factors than we are/have, so perhaps the effects aren't so evident to your people, but I am frequently amazed at some of the comments I see about global warning from US residents. Denial is the most frequent response. No-one here is doing that anymore - even our Prime Minister has finally realised that it's a problem and he's a good friend of Geo. Bush.
Thanks Charlie - will look at them later have a small person trying to get me to read him "The Grandpa Book".
Do you mean for reading online? Start with the CIA factbook which is what I always read to learn the basic govt structure etc of a country I don't know about - a good start.
I just read the intro and chapter one, which is a freeby, here:
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down a bit for the download.
It looks quite interesting and I like his style. The analysis of corn in the economy and in the food chain is more important for the USA but I suspect has some relevance here. The other chapters on non-industrial food may be worth the price without it.
Dumb question. Of course you'd want to read online as it's the easiest way if you can't get to our bookstores or newsagencies.
That's a bit difficult these days. We've had 11 years of an extremely conservative government headed by Bush's mate, John Howard (our Prime Minister) and unfortunately during his time, changes have happened to this country that I hoped never to see in my lifetime.
He has a wonderful patter that, if one doesn't listen closely and doesn't analyse what he says or the impact of his policies, sounds pretty good. All the good warm, fuzzy buzz words that make people feel comfortable and secure and lull them into thinking all is right in their world. You'd know them: 'democracy', 'freedom', 'respect', 'security' yada yada.
He's just like a magician, watch the right hand while the left hand is really doing something else and that something else is usually not going to benefit anyone but the richest and most powerful. He's really very authoritarian in his outlook and intent - often described as '1950s Man' because that is where he is trying to drag us back to in terms of attitude and societal thinking.
His real agenda is to stay in government and I have to say that the man is perhaps the most brilliant politician this country has ever had. That is not a compliment. He is a supreme political animal but he is not a real 'leader' for the country. He is a good leader for his party but is not really interested in what is happening to the well being of the population as a whole although he disguises that be saying the right words. He is very good at fooling most of the people most of the time.
He has made the sort of political appointments that you would be used to in the US, but which have never really been a factor of this country's political landscape till his government. Sure, previous governments have done the odd 'job for the boys' thing such as the occasional nice Ambassadorial post in some gorgeous location for former politicians but these have been few and far between in the past as our Diplomatic service (and all other civil service jobs) have always (till this government) been a career service - they do it for the whole of their worjing lives regardless of the party which holds power. The old catch cry of civil servants was that they worked for the people of Australia and would provide advice to government "without fear of favour". No civil servant who cares to remain employed would give any advice without fear these days. Anyway, our current government has made political appointments left right and centre to any board or civil service job where they can get away with it and they are all designed to gag or to reduce real political comment/dissent/criticism.
The government has also criticised our judiciary in ways which are totally alien under the doctrine of the Separation of Powers.
They've also brought the idea of negative political ads from the US where they were apparently designed to put people off going out to vote. Since we have what is an effectively (but not in reality) compulsory voting system, that is also making waves.
The impact of 11 years of this government has been the most appalling dumbing down right across the board. I don't know if this is happening world wide (which also seems to be on a dumbing down track from what I can see) but that's what living here feels like - the newspapers aren't worth a pinch of manure anymore and even the ABC which David recommended and which is still the best we have, has been so starved of funds (it's government owned - similar to PBS perhaps??) that it can't do what it used to do.
One of the favourite tricks of this government in the dumbing down stakes is for certain members of the government to appear on the right wing shock jock radio shows which are only listened to by morons so they get a sympathetic hearing and all the morons ring in to ask puerile questions and tell the pollies how they approve of their action for the next authoritarian action they are about to take. This is then picked up by the mainstream and we get moron level reporting in the mainstream press as a result. I despair sometimes!
My prime interest outside my home and friends is largely politics but as you can imagine, that interest crosses into things like the environment, the ecomony, social history related stuff. I think it was Clinton who said that all politics is local. I don't know that I'd agree with him as I tend to be a big picture person who sometimes gets lost in the small and/or local stuff.
Anyway, a lot of the reading I do these days is in book form although I do try to keep up with the press too. There is one journalist for whom I have the utmost respect for her incisive mind and knowing how not to be conned by our political masters. Her name is Michelle Gratton. After her there is one other journalist called Larie Oakes who would rate after her. On climate change you may be interested in this book
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I know you won't be able to get your hands on it but basically it is written by someone who used to be part of Howard's inner circle (but the author is now very obviously off their Christmas card list :-) - sort of like Al Gore in turning away from the mainstream view). I also read what these days in this country would rate as a left wing publication but a few years ago it would have been considered to just be a middle of the road journal providing analytical comment
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(This publication would be considered to be a Commie manifesto to most US midwest people I suspect :-)
The world has tilted too far to the right to my way of thinking and I seem to be in a minority because I don't want to live in a world where no-one seems to want to ask difficult questions or analyse issues or gives a shit about their fellow man.
Life as others seem to want it, all seems to be about home renovations and getting a bigger, better, newer, faster...............whatever. It's like the whole world went to sleep witht he end of the Cold War. I don't care if I have several old TVs, don't have an MP3 player and my computer is pedal powered. I must be getting old. All I want is becoming increasing unavailable or difficult to find.
Now I realise that my diatribe may not have covered what you want to know. What sort of news are you interested in? If it's just normal news then there are bulk papers both national and local. There are also specialty press such as rural press coverage for farmers/agriculture. Our press is probably less parochial than that of the US as America is a news maker and you can afford to ignore the rest of the world being the richest most powerful nation of earth but Oz is a news taker. One advantage of being a little, unimportant country at the what others see as being the bottom of the world is that we get news from all around the world. Our major national press will include articles sourced from organisations such as 'The Guradian' or 'The Independant' or other major UK and sometimes US Publications such as 'The Washington Post', 'NY Times' etc. It's not as good in terms of analysis as it used to be, but at least there is some of it is still there.
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