Seed life

[Higgs Boson]

You never heard of gay zuke liberation??!!

HB

[David Hare-Scott]

I have never found any consistent rule about which seeds germinate best in light or in dark.

D

[Fran Farmer]

That's interesting. I must pay more attention next time I plant older seeds of the cucurbita family. One thing that does occur to me is that in Australia what we call 'pumpkin', USians call 'winter squash' so Higgs might still need to seek a definitive answer to his query.

I'm assuming that the gardeners who told me about older pumpkin seeds found out what they were telling me based on experience just as you did with your summer squash. One of these gardeners also told me that dog poo was a superb fertiliser under lemon trees. Can't say I've ever been tempted to try that one but since he was a gardener who worked for many years at Government House then he should have had some knowledge and skills.

[David Hare-Scott]

Fran Farmer wrote: One of these gardeners also told me

Where did all these dogs come from at Government House? The explanation is that there are few conveniences in the rather large grounds of Government House.

Its due to gardeners' piddle.

D

[Fran Farmer]

Something odd is going on in the US when it comes to 'carbs'. It's like 'carbs' have become the new anti-Çhrist. 'Low carbing' is highly fashionable.

After having tried to get sense out of someone who I had thought was bright, curious and could do research, I decided that I'd no longer bother trying to make any sense of what people believe when it comes to what they eat and the reasons for why they eat what they do.

[Fran Farmer]

I wrote that he was a gardener at Government House. I don't know if he ever put dog poop under the trees at Government House. He had years of experience as a gardener both as a wage earner and as a non paid home gardener. His home garden was wonderful. I'd always assumed that it was his home trees that had the dog poop under them but must admit that I didn't specifically ask at the time and he's now dead.

He also advocated the use of banana peel and the water left over in the pot that vegetables had been cooked in as great for plants. I've recently taken up this latter tip and it's brought back to (relatively) lush life a poor suffering camellia and another small flowering plant at the base of the stairs off my front deck.

Regardless of that, the lemon trees at Government House are very good ones. Quite amazing really when you consider the climate in which they grow.

The explanation

Not so - there are excellent dunnies in the grounds at GH.

Possibly that is why the lemons at GH are so good.

[Drew Lawson]

I can't tell if it is just the US, as my exposure is largely online.

Diet has become worse than religion for not being able to tell what meaning someone has attached to a word. I used to hang out in a cooking group and was very confused by several posters until I realized when they said "carbs" they meant "sugar," and when they said "protein" they meant "meat."

Except when they didn't.

It wasn't worth the effort after a while.

[songbird]

Fran Farmer wrote: ...

heh, putting it mildly... the USoA has had agricultural fiddling with nutrition recommendations for quite some time, so when actual science is done it is often skewed by government funding and desires of legislators to push their pet crops through things like the school lunch program.

Atkins was popular many years ago. it was yet another fad diet that has been transformed into the Paleo diet over the past few years. not too long ago there was also the cinnamon pill diabetic craze, the fish oil craze, the carbo diet craze, the low fat craze, the butter and lard craze.

i think the major improvement in basic nutrition is best summed up as "eat real food". i.e. stay away from overly processed foods or things that don't look like anything real, most of what is in the grocery store these days is packaged technofoods that are largely made up of variations on corn, soy, sugars and various flavorings and preservatives.

the recommendation to eat a lot of protein is largely wrong for humans, we're omnivores, after so many grams of protein in a diet the rest is not needed and is very wasteful if you consider what it takes to raise and process (aside from plant sources). higher fiber foods are great in general too as they provide bulk, making a person feel actually satisfied from a meal, various probiotic foods are good.

i stay away from too much salt, and get plenty of exercise, that seems to be the most consistent advice you can get from various cultural studies.

i try to eat mainly what i grow and what i cook as i pretty much like almost anything. for the largest meal of the day (lunch) i eat enough to get me through to dinner and a day of gardening. i can eat about what i want now with me being more active. for later on, i eat a large bowl of shredded cabbage and carrots with various things added and a sweet and sour dressing of some type. keeps me full and mostly away from the night time snacks.

songbird

[Dan.Espen]

Hey, if only it was confined to carbs.

Just about any nutty thing people can come up with gets a free pass. The magic in pyramids, the healing power of magnets, anti-vaccine, every bizarre belief gets a load of adherents.

[Todd]

Hi Fran,

One in six of us are getting T2 Diabetes. The Diabetes Association is predicting it will go down to one and three (though I think they may have dubious motives). It is directly linked to the over consumption of carbs. It doesn't fall out of the sky and hit you in the head.

Carbs are fine, when consumed in the quantities that were available in our ancestral diet (99% of human history), which was extremely varied. We now have gotten too cleaver for ourselves and have hybridized plants to produce artificial amounts of carbohydrates that do not occur naturally in nature. I think this all came about when we discovered beer and hybridized grains for better beer. So the poison in truly in the dosage.

There is a part of your brain called the satiation switch that makes us happy when we eat carbs. Only problem is that it is designed for our ancestral diet, not the artificially hybridized diet of today. Carbs become very, very addictive. They are cheap to produce, which makes the special interests push the damned things.

Oh do you know the scoundrels a the USDA think I should be eating 400 grams of carbs a day! (I am between 30 and 60, and health folks should probably keep it under 100.) Talk about corruption and palm waxing! There is so much money in cheap food like substances (carbs).

And this goes way beyond a fad. It is a major health problem. I know one man it killed. He refused to stop eating carbs. I know another man who told me how to abuse drugs (insulin) so he could eat pie. He now has lost both legs, lost his kidneys (he is on the transplant list), had a major heart attack. It is going to kill him and a lot of people love and depend on him. And he still won't dump the carbs. This is a horrible addiction.

I think part of the "Fad" part you are pointing out is that folks have noticed that you can not get fat on fat (use or lose). To get fat required insulin (the fat hormone) and carbs. So fat bigotry has some to play with it. The weight loss industry is a bunch of so and so's. And society's attitude towards fat people is scurrilous.

Now if you are in the five out of six, do worry about it. If you start to gain weight and/or pee a lot, then worry. (Remember that skinny people get T2 as well.) Also, if you are suddenly starting to lose weight for no reason and your idiot friends start to tell you how good you look (like mine did). WORRY BIG TIME!

The good news is that you can recover from carbohydrate poisoning (T2 Diabetes). And you can live a completely normal life, as I and others do, without drugs or allopaths.

And, when you get off the high carbs, your satiation switch will reset and you will suddenly start to taste subtleties you never even know were there. My eyes role when I eat my home grown tomatoes.

Paleo is what pulled me off the drugs. And it is simple. Meat, fat, low carb plants. What you eat in order of precedence:

1) what you grow or catch yourself, 2) local grown, 3) organic farmed, 4) as natural as you can get it. Don't obsess on it. And, oh man I eat so well!

Plus, there is more to Paleo than food and exercise. There is the walking barefoot, getting up and down with the sun, spending time with loved ones, including meals together.

We all know that Grok (my favorite cave man) use to have to chase his food. What we all miss is that he chased it with his family, his friends, his tribe. We have so totally lost this in our culture.

If anyone reading this catches T2, I keep a running list of scientific research on tradition medicine (herbs) to help heal the injury. If you can find me (ping Todd in the subject line), I will send it to you.

By the way, speaking of loved ones, T2 is a family/tribe issue. If anyone in your family/tribe/loved ones has T2, YOUR EAT WHAT THEY EAT. (Well, at least in front of them.) My wife made the decision to be on the exact diet I was on when I got inducted into the pin cushion club. She has been a total blessing (she is a trophy wife in the truest meaning.)

I am teaching myself to cook. We eat together. Now to get the grow it yourself down. (Me and my black thumb.)

The poison in truly in the dosage.

-T

[Todd]

Hi Songbird,

1+ Stay away from processed foods.

I don't think you realize it, but you described yourself as a Paleo. I doubt you will ever get Diabetes.

Take a look at Mark Sisson's Primal Blue Print. Almost to a "T" what you describe:

If you don't have the time or inclination to read the whole 10 step plan, here is the part on food:

1. Eat lots of animals, insects and plants.

This is the basic description of everything our ancestors ate to get the protein, fats, carbohydrates, vitamins, minerals, antioxidants, phenols, fiber, water and other nutrients necessary to sustain life. But it was a huge list of individual foods ? some anthropologists say it may have been 200 or 300 food choices at a time depending upon the geographic area. The net result was a dietary ?breakdown? of fat, protein and carbohydrate that was far different from what Conventional Wisdom considers optimum today. This diet provided all the necessary fuel and building blocks that, along with specific exercise, prompted their genes to create strong muscles, enabled them to expend lots of energy each day moving about, to maintain healthy immune systems, to evolve larger brains and to raise healthy children. They ate sporadically, too. When food was plentiful, they ate more than they needed (and stored the excess as fat). When times were scarce, they survived on fat stores. This random or ?non-linear? eating pattern kept their bodies in a constant state of preparedness.

If you read the whole thing, you will find this is not a fad. It is very well though out. It saved me from Diabetes. And, the quality of my life has risen appreciably.

You will love #6. What? I ain't saying. You will just have to read it. :-)

Your fellow paleo,

-T

[David Hare-Scott]

No you are oversimplifying too much. The causes of type 2 diabetes are both genetic and environmental. Having a parent who had it increases your chance of getting it. The chance of getting it is also related to

- age

- overweight (particularly)

- lack of excercise.

Consumption of excessive carbohydrates is related to being overweight but is by no means the whole story. You can have all the risk factors above on a low carb diet if your ancestors had T2D, you are 60YO, gorge on fat and sit on your arse all day.

Do not be confused because those who get T2D are told to manage their carb intake as part of the treatment. This is related to controlling blood sugar once insulin production becomes deficient which is not the same thing as preventing T2D by not eating carbs.

If you want to be healthy and live to a ripe old age:

- have good ancestors (!)

- don't smoke

- maintain good weight

- excercise regularly

- eat a BALANCED diet

- don't worry (including about your carbs unless your doctor says so)

David

[songbird]

Todd wrote: ...

no, i described myself as someone who knows the difference between processed and unprocessed foods. Michael Pollan and the slow food movement or the CSA movement, or the many other movements which aim to get back to eating real food and not processed forms of sugar, corn or soybeans.

Paleo is just yet another way to package the same ideas that have been there before and it sells new books, new cookbooks, website content and advertizing, etc.

...

i'm glad it has helped. not on-line at the moment so i'll try to check the website cited when i get back in the morning.

what i've read so far about diet and diabetes is pretty much in line with what David has written in reply to you so i won't repeat it. there are some excellent books on the topic which reiterate much of the Paleo approach, but it's not called that. from the Dr. Gotts "no sugar, no flour..." diet to many others... they've all been good starting points to improving one's health, but all along the basics have still remained the same: eat moderately, get plenty of exercise, avoid extra salt, avoid extra sugars, etc. these have been known since i was a child. just that most people do not follow such basics. the whys of that are manyfold.

songbird

[Todd]

No. I offend the special interests that make tons of money off of food like substances and treating the effect of what they cause.

Only a little bit

Indeed: carbohydrate poisoning.

Having a parent that feeds you junk food and prepared (high carb) food knocks it out of the park

Minor

Actually, it is

Fat is the preferred fuel for Humans. Carbs are not. As my GP allopath states "There is no evidence that the consumption of fat is in any way harmful to humans".

Wow.

You eat four times the carbs your body is designed for and your burn out your pancreas. That is the injury I am speaking of. Your pancreas GIVES UP. (You lose the weight you gained when that happens. You starve with a belly full of food.)

Fortunately, it can be healed. BUT YOU MUST DISCONTINUE THE INSULT.

Somewhat

EEEEWWW

Don't eat too many carbs. Can't gain weight from fat.

Best exercise is the one you will actually do.

Whose diet? The special interests will kill you with their food pyramin

Spend time with loved ones and friends.

Allopaths are not their for your good; they are there for their own good. Hopefully, the two intersect. Quite often they don't. They are there to "treat", not "cure" (follow the money).

Hi David,

I know you mean well. You just haven't lived through it and you still believe the bull shit from the special interest groups that are getting rich off of feeding us this garbage (carbs out the nose) that gives up T2 and endless treatments for it until it kills us.

And, yes your fellow man would do that to you in a heartbeat to make money.

If you think I sound nutty, consider this. The Inuit indians eat a wide and varied diet. Now, except for pine needles and a few lichens they make tea out of for vitamin C, they eat no fruits or vegetables. They eat meat, fats, fish. Guess what? No Diabetes. Well, until the convenience store move in, then OH HOLY SHIT. And there you have it. It is just that simple.

Another word for Diabetes: "Cash Cow".

-T

[Fran Farmer]

The list of ingredients for some 'foods' is amazing. I spend a lot of time reading labels and I'm often amazed at the way that producers faff so much with some products

:-)) Yup. As a beef producer, I've read a lot on the inefficiencies in the production of meat protein vs vegetable protein. I also learned the hard way about the involvement of animal products in colon cancer.

higher fiber foods are great in

Yep. Avoid fat, sugar and salt, get lots of exercise and hydrate well say all of my health professionals. Shame I didn't pay more attention before I got 3 major cancers (I don't count the various non terminal skin cancers)

I find that I like a full tummy at night. Dunno why but that's the way I am.

[Fran Farmer]

:-)) That's the problem that I'd noticed too.

:-))) Been there and got the T-shirt.

Not worth it.

[George Shirley]

Same, same Fran, squash and pumpkins are all basically squash. Nomenclature is just a way to get your kids to eat pumpkin.

We have numerous acorn squash seed that didn't compost well so one of the beds has lots of squash growing. I baked a store bought acorn squash and tossed the seeds in the composter. The seeds germinated in the garden bed and are producing what looks like a Hubbard squash that has a light green background and dark green stripes. Hybridization does that to plants. Doesn't matter to us as squash is squash and might be a pumpkin but it's all edible. Amazes the great grand kids when they see something different and teaches them a small lesson about hybridization, I hope.

[songbird]

...

a lot of it comes down to a few needs of a packaged food and of course money. keep it from rotting for a long time and keep it palatable while sitting on a shelf for months at a time. sugars, salts, additives to keep fats stable, keep moisture in the product and not out condensing on the inside of the packaging. and then the money factor where the added ingredients are often cheaper.

i'm glad you made it through the treatments.

wow!

the large salad keeps me feeling full all night. i joke about how much exercise i get just eating it. normally, with a very dense food with a lot of calories, i can eat way too fast (two minutes or less) and that makes it easy to overdo it. with the large bowl of salad i can't eat it that fast and the calories are much less.

songbird

[songbird]

...

i've always seen recommendations to include a variety of types in a patch to encourage good fruit setting/filling. my own experience here bears that out.

as we don't have a formal compost pile to put scraps in i put them in the worm bins, but after several years of having squash and melon seeds pushing up through my other seedlings i decided the past few years to separate as much out as i can before putting things in the worm bins and to put the seeds into only one of the worm bins (that one doesn't go out into the gardens each spring).

as most squash seeds are great when roasted i've taken to squeezing them out of the pulp (do not add any water) and drying them on a tray before rubbing the last bits of stuff off them. i have a good supply now for planting. if we had more empty fields about i'd be scattering them in those to see if i can get a wild population established. i'm hoping i can get out in the back area (on the other side of the large drainage ditch) and scatter a bunch of squash and melon seeds back there. likely most of them will be animal food, but that's ok...

songbird

[Higgs Boson]

Fran, was that you who wrote about "full tummmy at night"?

Now I'm nobody to preach, but I have read studies on weight as follow: Sub jects in group A ate their last meal around 3 PM. Subjects in Group B ate their last meal at 6 pm. Subjects in Group C ate their last meal at 9 PM. ISTR the 3:00 group lost the most weight, followed by the 6, with 9 coming in last. Supposedly the slower metabolism at night doesn't work as hard.

HAH! So true! I'm a carb freak and have to fight to make myself prepare d ark green vegs, though I love my broccoli when I finally make it. Unlike on e of our former Presidents:

"I do not like broccoli. And I haven't liked it since I was a little kid an d my mother made me eat it. And I'm President of the United States and I'm not going to eat any more broccoli.

George H. W. Bush"

As to longer consumption times for breakfast, I usually eat Scotch oats -- the granular ones -- but sometimes I'll take the time to build a choppe d salad of whatever's around, sprinkled with Israeli feta cheese and lemon juice from my tree. (Mouth watering; must hastily log off...)

HB