Help with Compost Tea

I've come to the conclusion when this newsgroup is relatively quiet, someone will post something verbose and ignorant to get the hackles up with people who know the information, and who actually are professionals in the horticulture industry. Anyone who owns a garden center knows that it's not a big money industry. There is a lot of loss and not much money left. High end garden centers do make money, but by a long shot not the way it's being described in the hugely snipped troll. I guess it got too quiet in here.

v
Reply to
animaux
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I don't buy it, I make my own, and yes, I use it the day it's ready. It takes about 36 hours to brew and I make it when I know I'll have time to use it when it's finished.

Reply to
animaux

I use stored bought mushroom composts and some very sweet dark liquid called molasses, mix with aged water, and pump air for two days before using it. I got the formula from a Dr. web site that were repeatedly mentioned in many other web sites for DIY compost-tea.

I don't know what "ACT" you are really referring to.

Frankly, I have a feeling that whatever benefit that the compost tea can give me doesn't justify the amount of work (and electricity and noise) that I put in making it. I have a feeling that I am better off top dressing my plants and lawn with composts (if I can find a vendor that can sell compost in bulk for top-dressing my lawn). The reason is that I can see the benefit of using compost with my own eyes; but I cannot see any benefit of using compost tea.

In one corner of my vegetable garden, I have dumped a large quantity of finished compost in last fall. Now, the vegetable in that corner grow taller, bearing larger fruits than the rest of the vegetable garden even though that corner of the vegetable garden receive the least sun exposure. On the other hand, I cannot see any difference from area in my lawn where I have poured compost tea for one month as comparing to an adjacent area that only receives plain water.

I am not saying that compost tea has no benefit (afterall I only have applied it for one month). I am saying that whatever benefit is very small as comparing to the effort that I have put into preparing the compost tea. I really should have been spending the little time that I have left during a day to take care of my flowers, removing weeds, and to enjoy watching my garden.

I am not against other people from making compost tea as long as they "feel" good in doing this. I just don't have the time in doing this especially when I cannot visually see any difference after using it.

Jay Chan

Reply to
Jay Chan

In two posts , snipped-for-privacy@gbsftgus.com screamed & scribbled:

Tch tch. When someone has not a leg to stand on & has read nothing whatsoever beyond some advertising claims, all they can do is resort to "you're a stinky baby!" or pretend that professional retailing is horticulture, or respond to specific & valid information with citation of source as "ignorant!" "troll!" Attempting that feeby to counter the ACTUAL field studies & research of ACTUAL horticultural professors who are careful to sort out what is myth from what is valid in amateur organic horticultural practices with nothing more rational than "ignorant stinky baby!" reflects badly on no one but yourself. Having reality on my side I don't have to resort to the contentless childishness of just calling you a trolly stinky ignorant infant.

So for now you're angrily committed to not sorting out what little is beneficial from the larger sales pitch the science does not support. Perhaps when you get over having your illusions shattered you'll actually read the research & see that it is quite different from the promo literature.

It IS interesting to see, though, that the anti-organic people who just LOVE chemicals are not always wrong about greenies not caring what is true. Fortunately most of the greenies I hang with do know the difference between evidence & a sales pitch & likely had their doubts about this latest fad. It IS a tragedy that the science doesn't support more than one out of ten of the wild claims for compost tea, but there it is, & you can put your head in the sand & call your betters names till the cows come home, but in this case (to put it at the intellectual level you're capable of) I'm right, you're wrong, neener.

-paggers

"In the peer-reviewed literature...field-tested compost tea reported no difference in disease control between compost tea & water." [Linda Chalker-Scott, PhD, University of Washington horticulturalist]

Reply to
paghat

Or at least analyzed further peer-reviewed data, which I also cribbed in the other thread's list of false claims & potential harm surrounding compost tea. The data is mixed for NON-aerated compost tea's impact on pathogens, but when restricted to peer-reviewed studies, the picture is clearer: Occasional benefit is observed in suppressing pathogens with NON-aerated teas, but outcomes are not uniform or predictable so that much of it amounts to "irrepordicible science," while for others the observable benefit is equal to the benefit of watering. AERATED compost teas show none of the insinuated values for non-aerated. And surface mulching compost DOES have many of the pathogen-suppressing benefits unproven or unpredictable even for the non-aerated teas.

Further, the risk to watersheds has been shown in six additional peer-reviewed articles to be very possible. That alone would be good cause to stick to the superior method of topcoating with compost mulch, which does not negatively impact the environment as compost teas could.

The concepts of organic gardenings should have provable & duplicatable results to be regarded as more than empty-headed fads. By and large organic principles result in healthier gardens BY FAR compared to people reliant on pesticides, herbicides, fungicides, artificial fertilizers, & all manner of toxins. But not everything labeled "organic" is harmless or effective, & compost teas can be problems for watersheds, besides failing to function in the garden's favor in the umpteen false or unproven areas vendors claim for it beyond merely fertilizing.

Yup, to quote: Under "The Myth": "The popular press and the internet have exploded with kudos for aerated compost tea as a disease control agent. There are well over 4000 dot-com hits on the Google search engine, compared with only 1900 two years ago. Numerous magazine and newspaper articles have featured compost teas as environmentally-friendly alternatives to chemical pesticides, claiming reduced run-off into aquatic systems among other benefits."

After a balanced analyes of the possible exceptions, the unduplicable science, the "best" outcomes being always from non-peer-reviewed sources, & the peer-reviewed science findng benefit in retarding pathogens equal to normal watering, & data non-aerated teas with specific qualities POSSIBLY suppressing specific pathogens, this was the "Bottom Line" of the accumulative science:

COMPOST MULCH HAS BEEN DOCUMENTED TO SUPRESS DISEASE (that much is certain

-- so stick with that kids!)

NON-AERATED TEAS MAY BE USEFUL IN SUPPRESSING SOME PATHOGENS ON SOME PLANTS (evidence is mixed but some specific values are probable though outcomes may always remain unpredictable as to efficacy, a hit & miss method of disease control)

AERATED COMPOST TEAS HAVE NO SCIENTIFICALLY DOCUMENTED EFFECT AS PATHOGEN SUPPRESSORS (and that, alas, is the aerobically brewed stuff promoted by vendors selling the teas or selling aerobic brewing equipment .

So, surface mulching compost DEFINITELY GOOD, non-aerated teas POSSIBLY SOMETIMES GOOD, aerated compost teas "brewed" by nurseries or with pricy brewing eqipment NO EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER OF EFFICACY.

So while some specific, limited, but good values may yet be proven for compost teas that are NOT aerated in restricting some pathogens on some plants, the thing that is unquestionable is that topcoating with compost is the proven superior method for doing the same thing. The MYTH remains: "Aerobically brewed compost teas suppresses plant pathogens." No science supports that myth. There is no evidence as yet that this is even occasionally true. Yet vendors sell it for this purpose & arrange lectures & instructions orchestrated to sell "brews" or home brewing equipment for this purpose.

The additional problem of numerous outrageous false claims for compost teas from functioning as insecticidese to repairing anarobic soils to adding homeopoathic and alopathic value to veggies for human health to being a good source of helpful nematodes all stand as the extravagant flimflams perpetrated by the greedy on the naive.

An additional bottom line is you can't repair damage poorly maintained soils with this alleged quick fix, whereas if ongoing soil management techniques are correctly followed, then no reason to even wish for the quick fix.

That aerobically brewed soil soups can be one more of many valid liquid fertilizer is unquestionably true. It is not the best, nor the safest option, & does not do more than fertilize. But it is an option for at least that, & very likely a better option than liquid fertilizers cooked up artificially by chemists -- though that too would have to be proven. Its when the vendors get out there in left field with claiims for values beyond fertilizing that they lie or exaggerate & miss-educate, promoting false or unproven values hoping that for once crime pays & we'll give them our money for stuff not likely to be needed, & if wanted anyway, easily made at home for free without special brewing equipment (indeed, since aeration decreases its value, the aeration vats are more than an unecessary expense, they produce a tea of decreased value!)

-paggers

Reply to
paghat

Aerobically brewed soul soup or compost tea has never been shown to have even slight or occasional value in suppressing plant pathogens. There is limited evidence of unpredictable benefits from non-aerobic teas. So OF COURSE what vendors have to sell as a pathogen-suppressor is the aerobic tea. Why do they do this when their claims might at least be justifiable as exaggerations if it was NOT aerobically brewed?? The reason they select the unproven is because it requires more equipment. You have to give them more money to follow their advice!

DISHONESTY OF

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says: "Aerobically brewed SoilSoup is alive...whether you are inoculating weed free potting soil, conditioning your garden soil or foliar spraying for disease control, this simple to use system gets you started." Yes, this outfit will sell you everything you need in their SoulSoup Brewing System so you too can "innoculate" soils or make foliar sprays for disease control that no study has indicated works even occasionally for this purpose.

SoulSoup pructs are available in many nurseries.

Trust no one from SoilSoup or any vendor pitching SoilSoup systems. They are trained liars.

DISHONESTY OF

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"This concentrated liquid compost extract is the best way we've found to feed the soil. The microorganisms are responsible for producing robust plants, more resistant to insect and disease problems."

It is "a" way to fertilize -- the best way, no. No science supports the claim that aerobic soil soups retard plant diseases. And they are NOT pesticidal. So three lies in two sentences. Trust no one from American Plant Food. They sell not only teas & equipment, but also the seminars to spread precisely such lies & exaggerations as exerpted above.All these companies require seminars as seminars are ideal for spreading "training" gardeners to be easy marks believing sundry baseless claims. Be cynical of any vendor repeating American Plant Food fabrications & exaggerations or which are proud to provide flimflam seminars.

From ANN LOVEJOY, voice of nursery ownership, pitching the SoilSoup company's brewing equipment which she never mentions she sells for a living:

"This aerobically brewed tea can help reduce or eliminate pests and diseases....can protect foliage from many diseases, is the greatest invention since compost, and that goes back thousands of years. The miracle machine that makes this possible is a small, sturdy bioblender that pumps oxygen into compost tea. I predict that within five years there will be a tea brewer in every nursery, if not every garage."

Truth: The science indicates that NON-aerobically brewed tea MIGHT have SLIGHT benefits in defense against some pathogens for some plants, but aerobically brewed teas have never been shown to have these benefits. This is why Ann has to call it a "Miracle" since it certainly isn't science, & hyperbole about it being the greatest advance in gardening since the middle ages is just badly written ad copy pure & strange. Her strong focus on aerobically brewed tea for disease control -- one of the things it is NOT good for -- shows the level of dishonesty deeply ingrained into these self-deluded experts at retail & wholesale.

Lovejoy is very knowledgeable in many things so I cannot believe she has failed to read at least the abstracts of the actual published science on this, such as shows everything she has claimed here for AEROBIC compost tea to be either false or unproven. Yet she says it because she has controlling interests in a very nice nursery that sells brewing equipment and teas. I strongly suspect she has investor interest in the SoulSoup Company itself, since she never mentions any other company though hundreds have sprung up as happens when any flimflam is new & easy to get off the ground. So while on the one hand I'm sure she has DEEPLY convinced herself she's not lying, & is in general not a bad person, this conviction of the greatest miracle since halfway to Jesus originates exclusively in her self-interest as a vendor, is not supported by any science whatsoever, therefore is not a forgiveable type of accidental misinformation.

HERE'S WHAT LYING WANKERS HOPE TO GET OUT OF YOU JUST FOR STARTERS:

$300 for a SoilSoup bioblender kit. No tub; just the part that aerates. A fifty-cent aeration stone from a petshop would do the same job, if the job even needed to be done.

$25 for Bottle of nutrient solution, which you'll have to buy regularly, making you a captive client (except not really -- you'll use this piece of shit "system" a few times before it sinks in what a dupe you've been & it goes in the back of the garage forevermore as impossible to get even twenty dollars for at your next yardsale alongside the Magic Sandwich Presser you bought off that tv ad).

$25 Tea bag that hangs on rim of tub. It's not like all you you're such a loser you might just get by with a hunk of cheese cloth or worn out underwear, you gotta pay $25 for a special sack you sweet all-day-sucker you.

$50 "SoilSoup System Plans". You can't even get the instructions without extravagant fee!

$25. Ten pounds of their compost to make the tea which is just bound to be WAY better than your crappy good-for-nothin' compost.

You still have to buy a mixing tub, an extension cord, hose hook-up, a ground fault interupter (or this overpriced cheaply made piece of shit will electrocute you). If you want it all as a kit complete with the tub but a smaller motor, that'll be $500, but will exclude the $50 System Plan since you won't have to put it all together yourself. And even then you still need to buy some extra stuff! However, if you want the tiny version that only makes about a paint-bucket's worth at a time, that's still a whopping $325. So you can spend much more or slightly less, but on average a typical system to do it at home, lacking everything you need, is $425.

It would be hysterically funny if not so appalling, but once you've dragged this $325 to $500 pile of shit home, IT CANNOT BE USED OUTDOORS!!!! Honest to shit! SoilSoup company warns to use it only in a covered location (which is why Lovejoy announced it should be in every garage) because the motor housing must never get wet! Holy cripes; & this warning after another warning to use it only where it's okay for the entire floor to get soaking wet. Just what we need, the garage floor soaking wet, standing in our garden shoes in a puddle beside a bubbling vat of water that can electrocute us if it gets wet.

All this amazing expense for crapola just to make compost tea which will be inferior to non-aerated, & which you could've made for free in an old laundry tub or plastic barrel with absolutely no need for special equipment unsafe to use if wet, magic nutrients, extra special our-brand-is-best compost, & a happy smile from hornswoggling vendors.

And with that $325 to $500 entry price, you have the reason for all the lying about protection against disease (just for the biggest of the many lies), followed up with lies about all the pricy equipment that should be in every nursery & in every garage. Well, maybe in the back of the garage never again used. And good leaping jehosaphat what a scam.

I still remember when Magic Light Box Glasses were being sold all over the city. If you put the light box on your head & adjusted the flashing lights for specific colors, you could cure any disease, restore perfect vision, & become increasingly intelligent. But of course that New Age tinfoil hat style flimflam didn't simultaneously benefit a facilitating industry, the way the Compost Tea fad is facilitated by nurseries. This one I'm afraid will be ripping people off for a long time to come.

--paghat the ratgirl

Reply to
paghat

Good for you Jay, I agree if you see no results from making a poor product it makes sense to quit...

Reply to
Tom Jaszewski

Bill I read the article. An odd thing is that Dr. Chalker-Scott refers to Roundup as a pesticide instead of an herbicide. This is a common lay-person mistake, but an academic should know better. Certainly when written as a professional paper. Compostman, Washington, DC, Zone 7

Reply to
Compostman

On Wed, 10 Sep 2003 10:14:13 GMT, "Compostman" I read the article. An odd thing is that Dr. Chalker-Scott refers to

With all due respect, it IS a pesticide. Calling it a pesticide is not incorrect for either professional or lay people. The specific type of pesticide it is, is a herbicide. Still, it's a pesticide and can be called such.

V
Reply to
animaux

In article , snipped-for-privacy@worldnet.att.net says... :) Roundup as a pesticide instead of an herbicide. This is a common lay-person :) mistake, but an academic should know better. Certainly when written as a :) professional paper. :) :) Pesticide is the overall group which will contain herbicides, insecticides, fungicides, rodenticides, etc. Same as Citrus the group containing oranges, grapefruit, lemon, etc

Reply to
Lar

Well, it's obvious that these are two superior minds who are permanently ensonced on their respective sides of the fence.

At this point, the main question in my mind is whether or not compost tea serves as a good nutrient boost for my garden. I wasn't aware of any cure-all claims for the potion, nor was I aware that it was even available commercially. I just want to know if I'm wasting my time in preparing a batch of the brown liquid if my primary goal is to feed my plants.

Thanks for your well-informed posts.

-Fleemo

Reply to
Fleemo

You've come to so few rational conclusions in your life haven't you. Now get the hell off the net & go stir your eency weency pile of compost that has defined your sole alleged expertise on UseNet. Sheesh, talk about the pot calling alabaster black.

-paggers

Reply to
paghat

A letter posted today on yahoo groups compost-tea.

Compost tea has been around a LONG time. Since the Roman Empire, to the best of anyone's knowledge. Just like aspirin, or honey for a sore throat, biodynamic preps. the science behind using these practices was lacking. Scientific studies were not performed with these materials, because of the weight of tradition behind them.

Aspirin began to be studied just a few years ago, and it was clear that effectiveness could be improved by understanding why aspirin works. Different formulations work better for different kinds of pains.

Compost tea is like aspirin for your soil and plants. Does it need scientific study? Sure. That's what IS HAPPENING with compost tea. We're getting around to studying it. But to declare that compost tea has no benefit because someone tried it on their bushes, or did a study where they used something that probably wasn't compost tea is a bad case of throwing the baby out with the bath water. There's some bath water that needs to be exited (maybe snake-oil would be another term), but there's a core of solid knowledge developing about compost tea.

Compost tea can work, amazingly well, but just like aspirin, some traditional formulations leave a lot to be desired. Throwing compost into water and leaving it to ferment can result in dead plants, or can result in vibrant, healthy plant.

Inconsistency in results is what has probably prevented compost tea from gaining widespread acceptance. I've killed a few plants with stinky, smelly compost tea. That's why I know at least some of what not to do.

Don't leave compost tea in a container until it starts to smell bad. Just because it smells bad doesn't always mean that bad things will happen. Sometimes there is no effect. Sometimes, the brew has enough competitive organisms in it to out-compete the disease on your plant and give positive results. BUT, any time harm has been observed, the tea has been stinky and smelly.

So, how do you make a tea that is consistently beneficial?

Aerate the tea during production, and the danger is removed. If we control the brewing conditions, then much more consistent teas are produced.

When someone assumes that non-aerated tea will automatically be anaerobic, they reveal that they don't know much about the entire business.

How do you know for certain something is aerobic? A real scientist would use an oxygen probe to measure oxygen concentration. Data are required to make a statement about aerobic - anaerobic conditions in tea. Non-aerated teas can still be aerobic.

If you are a non-scientist, smells are a reasonable way to assess anaerobic conditions. If the brew stinks, or smells bad, there's a real possibility that some very bad things will happen to your plants. Putting bad smelling, anaerobic tea into your soil may not cause the soil to go anaerobic, but it will certainly help move it that way. Anaerobic liquids may kill or put-to-sleep the beneficial organisms in soil that make soil aggregates. That means compaction will be more likely in the future, and your soil will be even less of a good place to grow your plants if it gets more compacted.

Do we need to test each batch of tea? Not if the data are there to show us that a machine can maintain aeration and mixing to produce good tea. You have to follow directions about temperature, water quality, added foods in the brewer, and compost quality. But if the tea machine maker has done the testing and can show the data about bacteria, fungi, protozoa and nematodes in the tea brewer, and you follow their directions, then the tea you make should be fine. Maybe testing the first two or three batches to prove to yourself that you are doing fine would be a good idea.

Why is there so little published on actively aerated compost tea? Because the machines to make consistent compost tea were only invented within the last five years. And the first people to make such a machine did not do adequate testing on exactly what that machine was able to do, or why it worked so well.

So, we're working on the science. But just because there are some snake-oil sales-people out there doesn't mean you throw the whole industry out the door. What is needed is education on which machines give tea that works every time, and which machines are snake-oil purveyors.

The International Compost Tea Council

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is working on testing all the kinds of tea-makers on the market. They have a good explanation of what is good tea, and why it is good tea on their website.

Soil Foodweb Inc

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has compared different tea machines on the market. Our findings showed serious differences between different tea machines in their ability to extract and grow the organisms from the compost. The biggest split was between machines that often become anaerobic during the tea brewing cycle, such as the Soil Soup machines, and the Growing Solutions machines. These two machines CAN make aerobic teas, if you are careful to use very low amounts of foods in the tea brew, but then you can't grow decent levels of bacteria or fungi if the compost used is truly mature. Fungi are never adequate in the Soil Soup machine, and only occasionally adequate in the Growing Solutions machine.

All of our agricultural and urban or suburban soils are typically low in fungi. Humans till and disturb soil, and that tillage knocks the fungi for a real loop. So, it is critical to get fungi back into the soil, and get the disease protection needed back on the roots, leaves, stems, and blossoms of the plants.

Machines like the KIS brewers

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the EPM brewers
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the WormGold brewers
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and the Bob-O-Later brewers (check the yahoo groups.com compost tea list serve, compost snipped-for-privacy@yahoogroups.com for their info) make excellent tea, with all the organisms in the compost extracted into the tea. They have data on their websites, they have demonstration areas they can send you to show where the tea is working (the best demos are in Idaho, on potato land, but the daylilies, people's lawns and gardens and even golf courses can be seen as well).

Now, if soil is already healthy, and toxic chemicals are not needed to maintain the system, what does that tell you? That the biology needed is in your system already. More good won't hurt, but it won't improve things. But you don't shut down an entire industry because one person's yard is in good health.

That's like saying that because I'm healthy right now, the whole antibiotic industry is pointless and antibiotics should be banned. What about when you get sick? What about when there is a disease outbreak? You are going to need the antibiotic.

When people do have plants that are not healthy, they need an approach that will bring back the healthy condition.

Same thing with human health. We need a medical system that pushes health, instead of antibiotics. Oh, you don't get rid of the antibiotics, because people will get into situations where there is no other solution, but you don't use the "nuke-em" approaches unless absolutely necessary. Same with compost tea. There will be conditions where the disease is so bad, that the tea can't keep up. So use the toxic chemical and then get tea back out there so you don't have to keep using the nuke-em.

But there is more work needed to learn exactly what conditions result in the best compost tea. That work is on-going. Keep checking the ICTC website, the SFI website for more information.

Compost has the benefits it does because of the organisms and the foods to feed those organisms in the compost. The organisms interact. Logic is lacking when someone suggests that compost tea is a problem because we "have to now worry about the microbes interacting" (quote from the B&B article that appeared in August).

There's no logic in claiming "there's a potential for variability" in compost tea without also applying that same criticism to compost. In fact, the most variable thing in compost tea is the compost. If someone wants to claim "some people do testing that is inconclusive", that just says there's a problem with your sampling, not that every tea ever made is worthless. As if the same criticism couldn't be applied to soil, or compost, or chicken soup.

Compost leachates should not be confused with compost tea. A leachate is an extraction of soluble materials. Tea requires the physical removal of the whole diversity of organisms from the compost, which cannot be achieved by passive movement of water through the compost. Tea is also brewed, so the organisms have time to grow, reproduce, and increase in numbers. No one who knows anything about compost tea would call a liquid a leachate in one sentence and call the same material a compost tea in the next sentence. Cedar Grove produces a compost leachate, not a compost tea. Someone in city government should push the issue with them, because Cedar Grove is mis-representing what they are selling.

Maintaining an understanding of the difference between leaching and leachates is also important. In properly made compost, the inorganic forms of nitrogen (N) should be at barely detectable levels. The inorganic forms of N are the most leachable kinds of N, which is why compost usually gets a bad rap as a fertilizer - low to no inorganic N, S, or P. But plenty of N is present in any decent compost, but present as bacteria, fungi, protozoa, nematodes, microarthropods, and perhaps worms. Biology is not leachable; the organisms have to be attached to their food, or they don't stay active. So organisms hold on very well indeed.

Leachates DO NOT contain significant biology because microbes don't wash off compost or leaf surfaces with a mere rinse or wash. Leachates contain soluble materials from the soil, compost, mulch, potting mixes, or whatever. Data exist to show that compost teas contain measurable amounts of nutrients, but not in a leachable form. You want proof? Send in a good, aerobic compost tea to a chemistry lab. They can show you that the N in compost tea does not exist in the inorganic forms. But look at the biology. That's where the N is located.

Now, leave a compost leachate in a vat for awhile and what Dr. Chalker-Scott was worried about could be true. Putrefying organic matter does not contain the biology needed to hold the nutrients in place. Without the right biology, leachable forms of N, P, or S do not get converted to non-leachable forms.

How do nutrients get moved out of the bacteria and fungi and back into a plant-available form? This requires predators of bacteria and fungi, but in the right amounts and in the right places. The plant should control this interaction, and it does in healthy soil. But when the soil lacks predators, then nutrient cycling cannot occur.

Compost and compost tea contain all these organisms, in greater concentration and diversity than soil. They are both inocula of the organisms. If the habitat is right, organisms grow and thus spread through your soil.

Compost tea contains the soluble nutrients found in compost, but lacks the solids that occur in tea. So, is it better to use compost or compost tea? Compost will have a benefit for years, while compost tea, no matter how high in biology and soluble foods, has a limited ability for maintaining organism activity. But organisms grow, and as a source of the diversity of organisms needed to get back in your soil, both compost and compost tea are terrific. Compost tea is easier to apply than compost, and can be used to deliver the organisms to the foliage. So which is better? Depends on what you need.

Now, let's clear the air about the study that was done at UW in 2001. Soil Foodweb Inc documented that the COMPOST contained a good set of organisms - that is bacteria, fungi and protozoa. Sorry, the compost wasn't outstanding, as there were no nematodes present. A Growing Solutions Microb-Brewer machine was used, which IF PROPERLY CLEANED, is capable of extracting good bacterial, fungal and protozoan biomass. (But please note that Growing Solutions no longer makes Microb-Brewers. They make a different machine now).

Note that the Dr. Chalker-Scott article tried to side-step around the fact that the tea was never documented to be worth the time and effort they were putting into it. Was the tea made properly? Did they clean the machine properly? NO DATA about the TEA. What about their sprayer? Did they ever test the leaf surfaces to see if they were getting organisms on the leaves? Did they get proper coverage of the leaf surfaces?

They did not document any of those things. When doing a study that is purported to be scientific, the very least you have to do is show that the treatment being applied is in fact what you say it is.

I visited the tea brewer that was being used for the UW study and immediately pointed out that they had severe cleaning problems. The insides and outsides of the brewer were streaked with bio-film, the pipes had not been cleaned. The brewer smelled so bad that I could not remain in the area. The excuse I received at the time was that the person cleaning the brewer had been on vacation just before I arrived. That's an excuse. If the person had been cleaning the machine properly, they would have left it clean. More realistically, the tea brewer had probably not been cleaned the entire summer.

When I was there, I pointed out that no effort had been made, despite constant reminders, to make sure they were getting adequate organism coverage on the leaf surfaces. They had no idea if the brown liquid they were putting out was really tea. This is in contrast to numerous clients of ours who have checked their first two or three tea brews and learned that they need to do to make top-notch tea and get excellent leaf coverage.

There were other possible problems, such as not applying the tea at the correct rates. For example, on Jackson golf course, the FIRST tea application was not made until after July 4. In the Pacific Northwest, all those ugly fungal patches, take-all, molds, and root-feeding grubs are well-established by mid-summer. To expect compost tea to take care of all the fungicide that has been sprayed up until then, much less all the diseases already well-established by that point is just ludicrous. The compost tea organisms have to establish BEFORE the "bad-guys".

During my second trip to talk with these people, at the end of the season, when I was standing on a green riddled with horrible patches of disease, it was revealed that when the head superintendent was away on vacation, the person left in charge had decided to use chemicals on the supposed "tea-greens". It was after that point that the tea had failed. Hum, I wonder why?

So, is it fair to suspect that there was a hidden agenda operating during this study?

At the beginning of the compost tea study in Seattle in 2001, I was threatened with a lawsuit just for saying that I work with Jim Moore, from Texas, who does consulting on golf courses, and has studies going on USGA greens. When questioned whether Jim had a Ph.D., I said I wasn't aware that Jim Moore had a Ph.D. But a golf course employee called Dr. Moore and told him I had claimed that I worked closely with him. Dr. Moore became so angry he threatened me with a lawsuit.

Guess what? There's more than one Jim Moore living in Texas and more than one working on golf courses which have USGA greens. Actually, the real Jim Moore told me that there were at least two more Jim Moore's in Texas working on USGA golf courses. For anyone to jump into lawsuit territory based on this "evidence" is beyond the bounds of normal behavior. But I think it tells a significant story about these studies on compost tea in 2001.

Compost tea has been around for a long time. The benefits have been variable. We need to standardize the tea-making process, so we know that each tea made is going to deliver the biology needed to improve soil and cover leaf surfaces.

There will be snake-oil sales people who try to cash in on this potential. There will be proponents of the old paradigm who fear what change will bring. But you can see through their lack of logic pretty easily.

Is more replicated, solid science required? Yes. But check out the science that has been done on the information listed on the ATTRA website. And in the book published by Soil Foodweb Inc.

If a scientist were really interested in doing a decent study on compost tea, they would test the tea, and make sure the biology was surviving in the soil and on the leaf surfaces. Just checking the compost, before making the tea, is not adequate science.

As a consumer, how do you protect yourself? The snake oil salesmen don't have any data to show their machines, or "compost", or "catalyst packages" actually improve the biology in the brew. They don't have studies that show that the biology in the tea improved the biology in the soil. Those kinds of studies have been done by Soil Foodweb, and are in the Compost Tea Brewing Manual, or will be published in scientific journals. We have a SARE tea trial in vineyards in review by a scientific journal currently.

And it is NOT just bacteria that must be present in the brew (beware of the plate count methods that only give bacterial results!). Fungi, protozoa and nematodes are also required in tea brews that will improve your soil, and ultimately end up with systems that require very little maintenance.

Neither pesticides nor compost tea are needed in healthy systems. But we have to have healthy soils first.

Fungi have been killed by the constant fungicide applications to our rose bushes, our cut flowers, our gardens, and ag fields. We need to put the beneficial fungi, protozoa and nematodes back. If you add back just bacteria, as two of the machines on the market are only able to do, you cannot hope to get the full benefit.

So, the bottom line is that caution is required, but out-right rejection is silly. Do some reading, check some websites, look at some demos. Don't waste your money on things that only give you step one in a twelve step program, and don't buy something from someone giving you hype. Data should be asked for, and if they don't have any data, walk away.

For more information, please contact the ICTC, or Soil Foodweb Inc.

Dr. Elaine R. Ingham is President of Soil Foodweb Inc, with labs in Oregon and New York, Australia, New Zealand, Holland and Mexico. She is graduate faculty at Southern Cross University, Lismore, NSW.

Reply to
Tom Jaszewski

Yowza, I sure hope you reposted that as a hilarious example of the muddy supernatural thinking of VENDORS trying to hornswoggle you into believing complete & utter nonsense, leaving out even moderate scientific content! As Dr Elain is one of the big-cheese VENDORS she perfectly represents the VENDOR perspective on why you should spend money on stuff her company sells. Funny she has been peddling this stuff a long time now, and STILL pretending "real soon now" her own COMPANY research will soon appear in scientific journals, as if her inane ad-copy could get past peer review (hasn't managed to do so thus far!). In this "letter" devoid of citation source or fact other than her sales-oriented company, she DOES manage to include the following nonsense in her VENDOR's screed:

1) She repeats the old lie about compost teas being a source of nematodes. 2) she notes that science is your enemy in these matters "because the weight of tradition" counts for more than emperical evidence of any kind unless it can be fudged for commerce. 3) She repeats the common vendor explanation for why all the field studies show aerated compost tea has no effect beyond that of plain water in controlling pathogens: It wasn't "real" compost tea! (Every vendor says "mine would've worked, they didn't use mine, it doesn't prove mine doesn't work" -- "magic" thinking). 4) Riddles her screed with central "ideas" that are completely irrational, like "compost tea is like asprin" -- truly avoiding the simplest logic. 5) Lyingly rephrases the extant science to make it sound as crazy as her screed 6) Lies outright that she can teach methods of absolute consistency for consecutive batches of teas. 7) Claims that compost teas are actually DANGEROUS if you don't learn from her methods (that's a new one! Most of these vendors don't want to link compost tea to the idea of dangerousness -- but I can see that someone who charges up the wazoo for compost tea workshops called "tea seminars" would want to create another level of tea mythology, that without her input you'll kill your garden) 8) Lies outright that safe teas can only be made with expensive commercial equipment you should buy. 9) Lies outright about there being no studies so far proving anything one way or another, but that her company & the equally commercial Compost Tea Counsel will real-soon-now be publishing THEIR evidences of its miracle values, & you should rely on that sort of vendor information ahead of time right now since you surely know they're gonna say miracles are miracles after all. 10) Contradicts six peer-reviewed published studies that show compost teas quickly leach out of soils before plants are benefited, & replacese reality with a flimflam version about compost pile leachates. 11) Uses the "baby with the bathwater" argument as back-up when the lies don't work -- cuz even if everything the peer-reviewed science has shown to be true really is true, you should still use the teas for purposes it is no good for because otherwise you're throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

[more vendor gibberish deleted]
Reply to
paghat

If you only use it as a subsitute for non-organic liquid fertilizer, then you're doing no harm. It's not as good as topcoating with an organic compost, but it's a damned sight better than non-organic compounds.

It is when it gets into the areas of being BETTER than other organic methods, or of preventing pathogenic problems in the garden, that the science informs you the opposite is true.

If it doesn't smell bad, it's harmless. Even if it stinks it probably won't do THAT much harm, but the odor is from bacterial wastes & even the outside-chance of adding beneficial microbes to the soil is shot to hell.

-paghat the ratgirl

Reply to
paghat

Often one to ten nematodes per gallon -- often none at all -- & even those few won't be the specific nematodes noted for attacking harmful insects, so you might as well be adding vinegar worms. Plus if nematodes are to be successfully introduced to a garden it must be done under specific conditions of temperature & moisture & in their species' season at a time when their host/prey is vulnerable. In context of teas the promise of nematodes has no applicability, & the word is an "abracadabra" incantation to insure sales from easy dupes who believe in merely magical principles perpetrated specifically to sell teas by vendors who really don't like the science.

And if you fell for the nematode line, did you also agree with that crazy biddy's claim that the only reason no field study supports her claims is because researchers & scientists sneak into the fields when no one's watching & intentionally poison their plants because they malicioiusly want to undermine her claims? If you believe such a paranoid scam artist about how the horticultural extension studies poison their plants to "get" her, then you're not qualified to judge who's an idjet with or without a microscope; all ya need's a mirror.

-paghat the ratgirl

Reply to
paghat

You just don't get it! We're not trying to add specific nematodes with specific hosts. That's just not the intent. And once again you pull a snippet out of context and exaggerate. The are no "magical" properties advertised by SFI! But I guess it's obvious, that when you are wrong, you just won't budge! Reminds me of your poke about Las Vegas not having "hundreds" of associations, when you are clearly proven wrong you get suddenly quiet or obtuse. So be it....one disagreement out of many posts with common ground isn't bad....

Reply to
Just another fan

Nope, no hope there. I got mine at the Cottage Grove Garden fair from my fellow ACT users.... Seems there's more and more stupid seed producers and farmers every day. I'm especially stunned by the ignorance of the 15,000 acre potato producer lessening his dependence on inorganic fertilizers and chemicals with compost tea. What dolts! I hope they see the error in their ways and go back to poisoning our food, or better yet support more GMO research!!!

Reply to
Just another fan

So typical of you ...back to the shit pile where I should have known to keep you....

Reply to
Tom Jaszewski

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