Why won't builders build what people want?

[jmvannoy]

In the town where I live (and the surrounding area), builders do not like to build basements. They also don't like to build one-level houses. Apparently, the most profit is to be had from a 2-story on a slab foundation. Because that's all they want to build. Never mind that a couple of years ago, the local newspaper conducted a large survey of home buyers to find out what it is they want in a house. Overwhelmingly, the answer was "a one-level house with a basement." The two-story on a slab was not even on the radar.

Presumably, the movement away from ranch houses is due to the ever- shrinking lot size. I remember when a quarter acre was a postage stamp. Now a quarter is considered a "large lot" by the builders. A lot size of 0.11 acre is quickly becoming the defacto standard around here. And for obvious reasons, you can't build much of a house on that unless it's multi-level.

And presumably, they don't like to build basements because the basement adds nothing to the heated living area, and when they're figuring their profits, they have to figure price per square foot of HLA. So to maximize profit, they simply don't build basements.

I sure looks like like home building has become simply an optimization problem. It's disappointing that builders (at least in my town) don't seem to care what home buyers actually want. They build what they want to build.

[Matt Whiting]

No, they build what sells. You can take all of the surveys you want, but all that matters in the end is what people actually buy. Trust me, if what is being built stops selling, then it will stop being built very quickly.

And if you have a house built, you can spec it any way you want. That is what I did.

Matt

[Chuck]

As long as you have a signed contract. This is very important. And if you have a professional architect / structural engineer and express your desire to match the home as designed with no changes unless your professional designer gets your permission from you to make the change. CID...

[longshot]

I live in central Indiana & most houses are 2 story on slab. The reasoning is simple. Its very difficult to put in DRY basements when the water level is almost at grade. Frost is only 30" so footers are no where near basement elevation like further north where you have to dig 54" anyway. the added cost is substantial. You could get a 2 story for 20 grand less than the ranch with the basement, & no headaches to deal with when it starts to leak.

[Matt Whiting]

Well, if you engage a builder and don't have a signed contract, then you aren't smart enough to even own a house. However, if you don't have a contract, then if you don't like the house you don't have to pay for it.

Matt

[Matt Whiting]

Where do you hide when the tornado comes through?

Matt

[longshot]

we don't hide we go outside to see what all that noise is. It's a Darwin thing. :-)

[Lawrence]

I learned in a Soils class that many soild are simply not well suited for a basement due to the soil conditions. People will build the basements anyway, of course. This leads to a lot of problems including wet basements, shifting foundations, and the damage that goes along with those things. Could be the reason local builder don't like basements is because their soil engineers and lawyers don't like them.

[Matt Barrow]

Well, what they can build CHEAP.

People buy based more on location that what the house actually is. In days past, they were homes, now there merely crash pads that people expect to occupy for no more than three years. Hell, notice how many people without basements park a $40,000 car in the driveway and store all their crap in the garage.

That mindset work for the "Big Three" automakers for a generation or so, then when it petered out, Japan cleaned their clocks.

People are so inured to the cookie-cutter homes, they'd buy anything that's new. I've seen some real verge-of-falling-down crap that was scarfed up like a shark frenzy.

I'm appalled by the builders of $300K+ home that use Wal-Mart quality fixtures.

Matt Barrow

[Matt Barrow]

That's only a factor in a (very?) few areas.

[Lawrence]

What we learned it that it is widespread at least in Minnesota. Very few of our soils are qualified to have a basement according to the soil scientists. Almost all older homes are build with basements anyway since no soil test is required for a basement to be built. Sump pums and dry wells are routine.

A basement is desireable for a house in a cold climate for obvious reasons. A basement can be built anywhere and waterproofing has improved a lot. That does not mean that a soil scientist will agree or approve. There are few dry basements in Minnesota in older houses and I suspect newer houses will leak given enough time.

I will agree that a specialist in soils is likely to have a rather conservative view when asked to put his reputation on the line. That does not make their opinions less valid just conservative.

[Matt Barrow]

Okay..do you comprehend what "a few areas" means?

[Chi' Minh Jr.]

Builders need to make money too. In the lower end 2-story-and-slap subdivisions, they have to cut corners to make money. Basement and large lots are the first things to go, followed by cheap materials and sloppy work. :-)

What people want is one thing. What they can afford is another.

For pe> In the town where I live (and the surrounding area), builders do not

[Matt Whiting]

Say what you want, but the bottom line is that it is not the builder's fault; it is the consumer's fault. If a builder doesn't build what people want to buy, somebody else will and the market will shift. If the market in a given area is staying with cheaply constructed homes, then it is because the area has people who are willing to buy cheaply constructed homes. And, no, I'm not a builder, but I know a little bit about economics.

Matt

[DAvid Norris]

I've built quite a few buildings in Indianapolis and they won't leak when built and waterproofed properly such as the 30' square tunnel that runs under lilly's corporate center, dry as a bone building 47 is totally underground with 8' of dirt on top with trees planted on top of a 10" concrete lid

[M&S]

Matt Whiting wrote:

Balogna, The average consumer adjust their wants very quickly to what is available. They quickly become drones who openly think they ARE actually buying quality and equally try to deny the repercussions of their actions with a litany of retorts. As posted in this thread, and others, this is clear by they boom of Wal-Mart type stores and big box home centers. It is brutally clear in our political process where the current mantra (post bush) is "stay on message" because eventually you will "drill" it into the masses heads and they _will_ begin to follow. It is a proven method for success. People, in a short period of time, become numb to what is actually quality and what is not. No different than feed lot cattle, they eat what they are fed, period. Show me a cow in a field who will stroll up to a dead cow and start munching, it will never happen. Yet when some vunderkind came up with rendering, vualah. The masses are no different, and Matt, you are _not_ an average consumer. Thinking because you took a class or two in college and know a bit about economics means you have seen inside the minds, or are in touch with, the masses is utterly naive. I have personally been working in the homes of the "average consumer" daily for almost 20 years now. I see first hand the way they raise their children. The way they rationalize minor and major purchases. I often times see first hand why they actually make the buying decisions they make. It is often times for far different reasons than any they would outwardly confess in a poll or in social circles. I also see, with them, first hand the repercussions of their actions on a regular basis. This is not solely a consumer driven problem and if you think it is you owe it to yourself to witness it first hand for a few months out of the year. Start a small business doing something in the average consumers home. I too assign a major portion of the blame to the consumer however the average consumer is not the sole problem. I would say it is moreso the fault of the middle-high end consumer. The one who knows better but does it anyway. It is a joint problem of those who dish out the food and those who consume it. A fat child is not responsible for their fatness when the mother continually feeds them french fries because of her own reasons. Personally I would say in today's climate the blame is steadily shifting towards those who dish out the food rather than those who eat it meaning less consumer more retailer. There could easily be an economic revolution causing a reawakening of consumers forcing builders into a return to quality but I dont know what that would entail.

Mark

[Matt Whiting]

You need to move to a place with smarter people. :-)

Matt

[Timothy Lange]

Yes, I know, our thoughts too a few years ago. After talking to other people in the market they agreed with us, we wanted to see more single levels with basements. Evidently a lot of people thought that way, that is all they are building in our area now. The last builder expo/open house had 12 of 16 being ranches with basements!

Tim.

JohnV@nn wrote:

[Fred P]

Big snip

Builders use "Wal-Mart quality fixtures" because the "Wal-Mart quality buyer" will not pay another penny for better fixtures.

On the other hand the Rodeo Drive Buyer will pay 10K for a warmer toilet seat.

Successful Builders sell what the Buyers in their market want to buy.

[Chuck]

That is not easy to do. If you don't have contract I think that you really don't have any control over the construction of the house anyway so you can't dictate anything related to the house construction or the architectural elements and plan layout.

CID....