steel building house revisited

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I contend your viewpoint is at best as narrow-minded thinking as you're accusing others here of, and at worst simply and blatantly wrong... :)

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Those things a simple phone call will answer far more precisely for your area than anyone here can tell you. But as you pointed out before, those are immaterial of the question of the style of house construction.

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If you have that kind of disposable income to save a hundred thou or so in a couple of years, power to you...not many do.

None of which are available to anyone here in other than generalities, either... Not knowing any of these other "sources" nor what they're contention is about what, it would certainly be hard to refute them. As you say, in the region of applicibility, they may well be right. OTOH, they might not be. Either way, it's not enough undoubtedly to be able to make any real decision on.

And, from my visits, they tend to have a different definiton of "convencience" than I... :)

Fine objective, if you can arrange it. Some can, some can't... ...

OK, as noted above, all these could be fairly easily determined by using the yellow pages and a telephone.

How thick should the slab be? When are footers required

These kinds of questions are only answerable for a specific design other than again the generalities of regular floor slabs are usually about 4", and footers are needed where there's sufficient load to require them (doh!). How much load is going to be where is going to be a function of what you build and how it is built which is why so much of what you're asking about isn't possible to be answered.

Did you hear about this or that

I think you're looking for essentially the impossible in a forum such as this.

I think there have been other suggestions, none of which seem to meet your criteria.

Reply to
dpb
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brianlanning" wrote in message news: snipped-for-privacy@m7g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...

CRITICAL THINKING Good for you! People who think for themselves are an endangered species. Unfortunately we've become a nation of sheeple - people who let others do the thinking for them - foaming at the mouth, right wing, extremist hate radio propaganda has convinced millions that war mongers and corporate w***es are on the side of the people, endless commercials upon commercials on the brainwashing machine (TV) stimulate an insatiable appetite for more & more things, politicians who try to convince you slaughtering innocent people & stealing their resources is "democracy", medical "experts" who try to convince you you need their expensive, dangerous drugs to cure made up diseases like acid reflux "disease" which is really sitting on my fat ass eating too much of the wrong food disease. In case you're interested this is the brain washing technology corporations & politicians use to manufacture consent and acquiescence:

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We've lost the ability to do critical thinking. We rely on "experts". Experts are usually people with vested interests. You should do it their way not because it's better but because there's a profit in it for them. People always want to have their own decisions validated so they'll try to convince you what they have is what you should have. What kind of car do you have by the way? I'm thinking of getting an air cooled engine car because it's easier DIY maintenance.

THIN SHELL REINFORCED CONCRETE BUILDINGS If you're in tornado country you should definitely look at thin shell reinforced concrete technology like AI Domes & Monolithic Domes. People who know nothing about it and have never done it will give you all kinds of nonsense because they can't profit from it. "It's too expensive, it's too hot, it's too cold, doesn't do this, doesn't do that." BS. Stick frame, even steel can't hold a candle to thin shell reinforced concrete on any objective parameter. I encourage you to find out for yourself.

I'm building an AI Dome in Norwalk, CT. Before I decided on a building technology I first went to the MD workshop in TX

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I spent $1500.+ of my hard earned money and a week of my time and a lot of effort because my initial impression was favorable but I wanted to be absolutely sure before plunking down the big bucks. I would encourage anyone thinking of an MD to take the workshop. It's a bargain considering how much you'll learn. Nobody knows more about concrete or polyurethane insulation. Even if you hire out the work you'll be more aware of potential pitfalls.

Then I went to Rockledge, FL to check out AI Domes

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They don't do a workshop; just a sales pitch where they explain the system but it's pretty thorough. It made more sense to me because there's no special equipment and complicated procedure involved unlike MD. AI is more DIY because it's a prefab modular system and should be somewhat cheaper (90% of the performance at 75% the price - in theory anyway). The only thing I'll have to hire out is foundation, electrical, interior finish, plumbing & gas like any house. All you need for the shell is a few day laborers (including myself), a scaffold, cement for the seams and paint. No roofers, no siders. Goes up quicker than any stick frame tho not as quick as DI fiberglass Domes
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Good luck whatever you decide.

Reply to
solarsell

No they've been around because there's a whole infrastructure of builders that understands it and has a vested interest in seeing it continue so that their income stream continues. It has nothing to do with the merits of stick which is just about as inefficient as you can possibly get compared to modern technology. This is the 21 century and there are much better options. Unfortunately some people are stuck in the 18th century, or 17th or 16th and continue to peddle their buggy whips to an ignorant public.

Reply to
solarsell

Typical scare tactics. Do what everybody else is doing because everybody else is doing it. If the house performs well there are intelligent buyers will appreciate it and pay for it.

Reply to
solarsell

It's like Ford "debunking" Toyota. "Don't buy their cars, ours are much better & we're really objective." Resales of Monolithic Domes & AI Domes have proven a high quality product will get market value & then some. There still are are some intelligent independent minded people in the world who can think with their brain instead of some other organ.

Reply to
solarsell

And we think you're a mindless sheep. BAAAAAAAAA

Reply to
solarsell

brianlanning wrote: ...

That seems to be totally under your control--if you're custom building you can control the layout...

Have you considered the difficulty and cost of heating and cooling this volume? All the warm air is going up to the ceiling 15-ft above head level and without interior partitions to contain any of it, you either heat the whole thing or none of it...

Depends on how much load you design in--you'll need a structural analysis to actually determine it. Only practical way I see to do something like this and be able to actually move partiions would be to have a fixed exterior area(s) to support the 2nd floor joists and use essentially something like the office partition systems inside it. And, of course, that leaves the question of how to arrange for rearranging the utilities (HVAC, electrical, perhaps even plumbing). Open plenum like office buildings is, of course, possible, but while relatively inexpensive for installation, certainly not energy-efficient.

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at least double this, probably closer to 3x by time do site prep, forming, finishing, etc.

Any of the steel building guys can tell you precisely, but I'd guess you're low by 2x here as well.

I'd say you're at least 2-3x low on most every item except (perhaps) the well although I have no idea what you'll have to do to get a drain field/septic system to handle the size of family you're talking about. I think it's probably conservative to guesstimate by the time you get something habitable you are at least 2x low overall. It depends, of course, on just how primitive you're prepared to be and how much you want to trade off initial cost for continuing operational cost(s). (The operating HVAC costs of what you're proposed at least initiall, are, imo, going to be absolute killers in a cold climate).

I'd say, at least 350k for something reasonably habitable--again, it depends on whether you want to camp out on a concrete slab or have a comfortable home so finishing costs can obviously vary wildly.

Reply to
dpb

Forgive me but I am planning a steel frame house in the future and disagree with some of your points. Being a welder steel is my material so to speak and I know what can be done.

I dont see how they are much less efficient (assuming you are talking heating etc) especially with modern insulations.

Not a chance if anything they would be easier. if you want to add more floor space for example you just unbolt one side of the house and add what you want to add. assuming the planning was done properly to allow this without undue hassle.

no different from any other house. again its all down to design.

Why? Its not that much harder to drill through steel than wood. probably easier because you would be drilling a hole through, what 8mm? 10mm? got to be better than drilling though 4 or 5 inches of wood and rubber grommets around any holes would solve any chaffing problems.

maybe at the moment people dont want steel frame houses but who knows what the future will bring. someday people may want to buy a nostalgic steel frame house when they are replaced by some other space age fibreglass.

Reply to
Dwayne & Angela

Well, sort of. The problem is that as soon as you say custom builder, the price goes through the roof. So in the past, we ended up with semi-custom builders or whatever. The end result was that there were always limits to what we could do. Unless you go to an architect and design the house from scratch, you have to start with some model from a builder and modify from there.

We have thought about it. And I think we can control everything with effective placement of rgisters/returns and with ceiling fans. In our previous houses we have always had problems with stratification. The upstairs is always 5-10 degrees warmer than the downstairs. To me, this is a sign of bad hvac design. Even with the dual zone system in our current house, it's still a problem. So the goal probably would be to heat the entire building at once, but keep the air churning to minimize the problems with heat rising to the ceiling. We're also considering a radiant floor heating system which should help that situation.

Probably the way to do this is to produce several (maybe up to five) sets of plans, each with different phases of interior construction. That way the entire picture will be clear before hand. We'll lose most of the ability to move walls around, but we'll at least still be able to do things in phases.

I'm figuring double what we're paying now. Which isn't so bad. We're in 3900sqft now not counting the basement. The building we're talking about is 4000sqft, but double the airspace since it's taller. I think it's managable assumbing we get typical residential R values in the walls and ceiling, which we should be able to do. We may even do better since we'll have 6" exterior walls instead of the normal 4". We're also considering geothermal a/c and heat. That would make the monthly operating costs really low, but has a huge up front cost. It's something like $20k to install. From what we've read you get that back in just a few years. In this case, it may make the difference between being able to do it and not.

We're probably more austere than most but I wouldn't call it camping out. I see where you're getting the 350k number from, but when you consider that you can buy the house we're in for that including the land and completely finished with a full basement, I still have to think the steel building is cheaper. My inlaws built a 3000sqft house with a 1000 sqft finished basement apartment for 300k iirc not including the land. And they went nuts with imported tile and high dollar door knobs.

What I'm describing to start has the amount of electrical and plumbing work that would go into a two bedroom one bath house plus a rough-in. There's fewer interior walls, although they're larger. Only the interior walls would need drywall. I would probably do the floor coverings myself and only a third of the building to start.

It's probably really somewhere between our two numbers. We need a lot more research. It may make more sense to do a smaller building of some kind and add on to it later.

brian

Reply to
brianlanning

But, otoh, you need those services from _somewhere_, and it's unreasonable to expect to obtain them essentially for free. While true it's possible you may be able to draw a floor plan showing room arrangements you like, this is no little two-room cottage-type project and there are some serious design and construction issues to be addressed, of which only some of the really obvious ones have even been mentioned here. It doesn't make a lot of sense to invest $200k and several man-years of labor and end up with something that has serious problems down the road for lack of competent engineering. This could take the form of anything from failing structural members owing to not getting adequate supporting foundations to inadequate HVAC or any number of other things if simply continue to try to "wing it" and throw ad hoc solutions onto a building shell.

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So, who is going to do this "adequate" design in a structure of this size? If it's hard in a 3000 sq-ft house w/ normal 8 ft ceilings, what is it going to be in 4000 sq-ft of 20 ft (which in the end you're essentially trying to turn into 6-8000 sq-ft? This is a _serious_ volume to heat/cool, and a couple of residential units aren't going to do it adequately. When you compound the size with the discussion of open floor space and movable partitions of a significant size and the eventual addition of a second floor, the complications are legion to get adequate circulation and capacity.

The idea of zoned radiant floor heat is one obvious partial (at least) solution, but there goes the floor slab installation cost from minimal as a conflicting item demonstrating yet again there is "no free lunch". The geothermal-sourced heat pump is a reasonable consideration as well, particularly if your site will have adequate water to have a water-sourced instead of ground-sourced unit. I have had one of the ground loop variety (Water Furnace brand, I can recommend them highly, btw) although in a more moderate climate than there and it is definitely true they will cut the operating cost vis a vis a conventional system. But, as you note, the installation is somewhat more expensive owing to the requirement for the exchanger loop. This can be ameliorated somewhat in new construction by doing all excavation work on site at the sime time to save a little on the equipment costs, but this would be a big system and undoubtedly would be pretty expensive initially. OTOH, I suspect it could have a fairly short payback in that climate but again, only a detailed analysis will really answer the question.

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I think the biggest problem/difference in extrapolating a conventional home to the warehouse is simply the single large open space is going to be far harder to control comfort levels in and when combined with the other stated objectives going to lead to a lot of difficulty in designing the system to be both comfortable and reasonably efficient. Not that it can't be done, but I don't think it is going to be cheap and both effective and comfortable at the same time. It's primarily the point that the objective of doing this on the cheap to me negates the likelihood of it being very satisfactory in the long run.

But, that has fixed walls and had the advantage that a significant amount of the engineering and architectural support services were almost certainly amortized over a number of other houses as well as it undoubtedly follows pretty conventional techniques and probably shares a basic floor plan with others as you've previously mentioned. Here, except for the shell which I'll grant will be less on a square footage basis, you're talking of everything being almost totally unique and of trying to "wing it" on how to solve various problems. While you can undoubtedly build something cheaply that way, I think it's a pretty sizable risk of not getting your money's worth in the end.

Don't see how that would be even barely livable given what you've said about the size of the family. It would seem almost mandatory to have quite a bit more than that initially to me, but then again, that's me. We've already discussed various levels of what one considers "convenience"... :)

I had a fellow who was one of the cofounders of a company for which I worked the last few years before retiring who, with his wife obviously, through a combination of adoption and foster-parenting have had at last count I knew 35 children for whom I believe something like 25 at last count were they either the adoptive parents of or at least full legal guardians other than temporary. Of these something approaching half have special needs of various sorts. While not something I could have done (our own four were more than distracting enough), I certainly admired them and anyone else who is able to do such for a bunch of kids that desperately need such help and attention, so I do hope you can succeed here.

That, I would agree with as the most logical thing yet... :)

BTW, another person back in TN (an ex-Marine drill sergeant and pizza parlor proprietor) took upon himself to take in court-appointed troubled and in trouble kids and mentor them and provide guardian/support services. In his case all were of at least 12-13 years old, so not quite the same thing, but his housing solution was a dormitory-style annex for sleeping quarters and study halls added onto the residence with a large common area. The other family had simply a large, more nearly conventional home similar to what it sounds like you are presently in with several wings that were semi-specialized for age ranges...

I would be surprised if there were not support groups or services for such families in general that would be a good resource for solutions to the various problems you're encountering although I certainly don't know of any specifically...

Again, good luck,

--dpb

Reply to
dpb

There's some, but not much. The resources I've found have more to do with adoption in general or psychological considerations and nothing about the logistics of funding and living a life like this. I've considered creating a website for this (I'm an IT guy) but haven't had the time to work on it.

brian

Reply to
brianlanning

Wow, who would of thought that this idea would generate so much low level hate ;)

I'd have to guess that thousands of people have done something similar. I'm aware of quite a few. The ranch across the road from me has two metal buildings, both around 300' long and they have a very nice two story home built in one end of one of the buildings. I've been to "airplane communities" where everyone owns one or more aircraft and the homes line the private runway. Every home is a large metal hanger with a home built into it. Quite a few commercial properties in industruial parks will have living quarters. Several people my brother knows (in the midwest) have built their homes in metal buildings. It's a growing trend in his part of the country. Subscribe to "Metal Construction News" (it's a trade magazine), and you'll get a good idea of how varied and how nice of a building you can buy.

Fortunatly this is still America, and if you want to live in a house that's a little different, or a lot different, you still can in most areas.

JTMcC.

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Reply to
JTMcC

JTMcC wrote: ...

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I think what derailed this thread was primarily the emphasis on the "cheap" end of it and what appeared I think too overly optimistic cost savings and too simplistic planning for solving real problems on a sizable structure.

In essentially all the examples you mention, I suspect the residence itself is essentially a conventional structure inside the frame and that the actual cost on a square footage basis isn't that much less than if the home itself had been built free-standing (counting only the residential space, of course). I've seen several similar as well and know that in those instances that is definitely true, the savings is that since the other building was to be built anyway, some savings could be effected on the outer structure. Also, in all of those instances, there wasn't an attempt to make all the modifications ad hoc solutions without the use of design and engineering services.

Plus, of course, it's usenet... :)

Reply to
dpb

I think this sums up the reason for the comments from those of us who have been down this road before.

I don't "hate" the OP. I just think he was being way too optimistic in evaluating the use of a steel building for use the shell of a residence.

As the above indicates, the "idea" isn't wrong-headed. What is "wrong- headed" is the apparent lack of adequate foresight and apparent lack of willingness to hire local design professionals to help evaluate the concept. This will not be a simple project by any means.

Reply to
Bob Morrison

As I said before, I was asking for ideas about different kinds of materials, designs, or techniques. I was also trying to put together ballpark figures for the various steps involved while acknowledging that some of the things may be difficult or impossible to estimate. Instead I got stomped for having an idea that didn't fit the norm.

I don't have foresight because I'm looking for ideas and nothing's been designed or planned.

I'm not willing to talk to professionals *now* because I have no idea what I'm building.

Like I said, I'm looking for ideas. Instead of suggesting more and smaller buildings, or a smaller building with additions later, or one story instead of two, or radiant floor heating to get around the problem of heating a larger airspace, or this type of window instead of that type, you told me that the way you've been doing things for 30 years is obviously cheaper than a steel building and that I'm nuts for even considering the idea when I have a dozen other sources telling me otherwise and over a dozen examples of other people who have done exactly this to get a cheaper house, or a larger house for the same money.

Instead of arrogance, how about open-mindedness?

brian

Bob Morris> > I think what derailed this thread was primarily the emphasis on the

Reply to
brianlanning

Brian, You can build a metal bldg. with Foam panels (metal skin inside & out) on the walls & roof and get a heck of an insulation factor plus a completely open bldg. free of internal supports. You can free span 150+ feet if you want and go to 20, 30, 40 foot eaves as well.

However, I really believe you need to decide, and list, a definitive set of parameters that will fit what you're looking for to get some best result answers here. Anything can be done as long as you have the money to pay for it......Anything else is probably guesswork from any responses you'll get here....

Dan

Reply to
Dan Deckert

Wow I was surprised by the lack of creative thought of most of the people that responded.

I have thought of doing the same thing and have looked at using strawbales to create the non-load bearing walls. Great insulation and cheap and you could have your family help put it together after you hire one knowledgeble person to organize and teach you. Use an earthen plaster and perhaps a lime plaster finishing coat for durability and it would be good. You could use cob construction (earthen/mud walls) for interior walls as well although they should be judicially placed in regards to collecting solar energy as they would be a great thermal mass and not so great as insulation. If you are sceptical of cob walls you would be surprised on how you can plaster them and they look absolutely great.. of course there is some skill required in plastering but you could hire someone to help and teach you at the start.

I believe your idea for radiant floor heating is good for some of the individual bed rooms but use proper solar design principles to catch the solar energy to help heat the rest of the large rooms in your structure.

Building a house is a large undertaking and yes I do value engineering professionals to supply the needed knowledge to ensure your structure does not pose a hazard to your family or is going to be underdesigned for plumbing , electriciy or heating/cooling, BUT i believe that the wooden/drywall structures we live in today are far removed from what is natural for a man to provide shelter and comfort to his family. Buiding livable and safe structure is not rocket science. I believe we have given away far too much of our power of providing shelter for ourselves and family by having building codes that are too rigid and "professional" attitudes that only serve to protect the "status quo" and tends to support the banking, lawyer and insurance industries as well.

Peace, Roban

Reply to
Organic

Sorry I can't help the OP, I don't think. I've skimmed through the message thread, and all I see is wanting a cheap commercial building to try to live in & add to piece by piece. I too am thinking of building my first house in about a year, and came across this site and pretty much made up my mind I want one of these buildings.

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Maybe the OP can look into something like this, it has an open floor plan, a "dry-in" kit is reasonable about $60-75k for frame, roof, & siding, the largest I see is 3800sf.

Not to Hi-jack the tread, but maybe someone here can give me a ball park on what it would cost to finish a 3000sf 2 story steel house, from slab to drywall [Crestwood 3 on the site]. I all ready have a working well but would need a new septic system as well. Is $100K possible, not counting the framing, roofing & siding. (I live in central OK if geography makes pricing different). I'd like to do some work myself to save $, but figure it's have to save $500-1k to make it worth the extra time it would take me to finish vs. a professional crew.

Hope the site might help the OP, or atleast give an alternate direction to look at, and TIA for any input on my questions. Bryan

Reply to
Bryan

Whew! I just found this place, you guys crack me up! Sounds likea meal with the inlaws.....

I'm in the process of designing this very same idea. My idea is to have a 50x100 di- vided in half with one side being liveing space and the other my shop. At this time condensation is my concern. I have 69 acres of woodland to use as material for a mock post and beam interionr to the living space 3-2, with metal or wood frame [depending] on cost inside walls. Sheet rock with tongue and groove will be the coverings. a second floor open loft would extend across the 50 span appromx 20 ft.

My footer will consist of poured columns where the red iron beams fall out and a continuous footer connecting with number 5 rebar.

Building in TN, have got estimates for the concrete work, with $5.00 a square foot being high. I will rent a track hoe and dig myself. Prices on erecting the metal building are anywhere from $2.75 to $4.00 a square foot. I really only need them to erect the red iron and maybe the roof panels.

Well drilling is $10.00 a foot and then $9.00 a foot for pipe. Bear in mind once you hit rock you don't need anymore pipe. Septic is $3000 for 1000 gallon model installed.

All plumbing, electical, inside framing, etc is DIY Everything else I can do myself with a couple helper/laborers to assist.

Bryan wrote:

Reply to
bill

Ok, now that you guys got me rethinking my metal home/shop idea where do I go from here? If what everything I'm reading here is true. I need to come up with plan b and or C. I took a quick look at the monolithic cement dome homes that was suggested in a prior post. Does anyone have experiance with them? The plan was to build something that is cheap to build and operate, have shop room and warm and cozy or cool and cozy depending on season.

As far as radiant heating the floors, any good links about that?

snipped-for-privacy@fia> Whew! I just found this place, you guys crack me up! Sounds likea meal

Reply to
Raider Bill

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