What's it like to work in a cabinet shop?

[phildcrowNOSPAM]

I'm wondering whether or not production-type millwork jobs are anything like wooddorking. There's a definite appeal there, but I've found that one of the fastest ways to stop enjoying something is to do it for a living. If any of you have found that to be true (or complete BS), then let me know.

I know, I know, every shop is different, but _how_ different can they be? With regards to framing, a wall is a wall is a wall. No matter who you're working for, the studs still go every sixteen inches, if you know what I mean.

Without a "cabinet" notch on my toolbelt, am I qualified to work in a cabinet shop, even though I understand and can apply terms like rail, stile, carcass, dovetail and, most importantly, square? Scratch that--most importantly, SAFE.

If I were to apply for work in a millwork shop, what would prospective employers look for in desirable employees with regard to technical skills?

Just wondering.

-Phil Crow

[Leon]

At the age of ten I was interested in wood working. At 16 it was cars cars cars. At 40 I retired successfully from the automotive business and basically hated it as I had been in upper management for the previous 17 years and ran my own company owned store at 21. After retiring my friends and relatives talked me in to going into business for my self doing wood working. 10 years later I still love it.

Biggest difference, I had to work when I was in the automotive business, I don't now.

[Edwin Pawlowski]

Good position to be in. Working in a production shop is like working in a production shop. Working as you please is taking a hobby to new heights and making money at it.

Small shops making one of a kind specialties may be interesting. Look at the work of Plamann and Watson for instance, where every day is different. . Working in a large cabinet shop is the same as working on the toaster assembly line. I'd choose carefully or yes, you will lose a hobby and have just another job.

[Unisaw A-100]

Yes it can be and sometimes not. It depends on where you go and what they are doing. Professional wooddorking has at least a half dozen different types of shops.

Plastic Laminate (Plam) Counter Shops Architectural Woodworking Trade Show and Museum Exhibits Planing Mills/Moldings Store Fixtures Kitchen Cabinet Shops

To name a half dozen.

(whew! for a minute there i didn't think i'd come up with a half dozen)

And even inside of those above there are subsets (high end to low end) making for better/worse places.

I don't think it's total BS but then I usually hear this from people who've not had any experience to back it up.

True.

Fundamentals are good to know but you won't be using terms like dovetail a lot unless you're yacking it up with a fellow employee. Most nearly every shop is set up different from the rest though sometimes not a whole lot. Some shops departmentalize the operations while some smaller shops take something from start to finish using a single man/woman or a small group. It's all different out there and sometimes not.

With the current labor pool you could probably look for and find a job in a professional shop. A good job? That's hit or miss.

There's a lot of work out there and not a whole lot of bodies to do it.

UA100

[Morris Dovey]

I once spent six months working in a furniture factory where the primary product line was business/commercial furniture. I heard recently that my old record of cutting 1200 chair frames (with no rework/rejects and no CNC tooling) in a single shift still stands.

Production woodworking really isn't (IME) much like wooddorking. It can be satisfying - but the reasons will be different.

[Knothead]

Depends on the size of the shop. If it's a big custom place there is a lot to learn and you can move through different stations like counters, drawers, doors etc. I thought I brought decent skills to the job when I worked at Hillcraft but quickly learned my skills really meant nothing there. Most of the work really boiled down to being some schmoe running a machine. Dowelling machines, dovetail machines panel cutters. No real room for experience or talent. I spent 3 months running an edge bander and trimming the waste from Melamine 4, 10 hour days with mandatory overtime on Friday and Saturday for a total of 55 hours a week. Boring mind numbing work. When the cool jobs came in it was saved for the folks who had spent the last several years doing edge banding and this was only like a 10 person shop.

Knothead

[Jim]

Phil,

When we had a millwork shop, here were the things we looked for:

1. Dependability - was there a good chance we could get 40 hours of work per week from the applicant
2. Enthusiasm - was the applicant excited to be interviewing us, or were they just looking for the first job they were offered.
3. Math skills - could the applicant read a tape measure and add fractions. Better yet, could the applicant divide fractions!
4. Common Sense - did the applicant understand the concept of "board foot" for instance, and recognize the difference between volume measure and surface measure. Did they understand the concept of "reference surface".
5. Safe work ethic - did the applicant have a full complement of fingers, or a very good reason for the shortage
6. Hustle - on a walk from one end of the warehouse to the other (for the tour) did the applicant walk quickly (and keep up) or saunter along and fall behind
7. Attention to detail - Could the applicant identify differences between good workmanship and poor workmanship
8. Technical Knowledge - had the applicant ever worked in a mill shop before, and if so, what tools and machines had they used. This was the least important criteria as we considered it teachable. In my experience, the other thhings (even math) were not teachable. The applicant either had it, or they didn't. If the applicants hadn't mastered basic math by the time they were joining the work force, we were not going to be able to teach it to them. (And it took me a while to figure that out, unfortunately.)
9. Woodworking skill - this depended upon the position we were attempting to fill, of course. Generally, for non-supervisory positions, we accepted the fact that most applicants were not serious woodworkers, and that we were better off starting from scratch that un-training bad habits.

The reality of the the workplace is that we often hired applicants that fell short in several areas, simply because the labor pool didn't support our needs. The result was a greater training burden on my supervisors, and more scrap. Most production shops are going to involve lots of repetitive (possibly boring) tasks. Imagine feeding a moulder for 8 hours a day, for example. I don't think that there is much difference between that and working on an assembly line. However, work in a custom shop is going to involve something new almost every day, and the employer is going to be looking more carefully at #7, 8, & 9.

HTH

Jim Ray, President McFeely's Square Drive Screws

[Rumpty]

a very good reason for the shortage

Years ago I was looking for shop help and a gent came in with 2 broken arms. I asked how he broke the arms, and he mentioned he was doing some tree work and fell...Ok...I asked how he lost the index finger on his right hand, he pointed to the jointer and said "On one of those......needless to say I didn't offer him the job.

[Leon]

Weeeelllll, that is what I thought years ago also. Doing the same thing over and over would get boring. But, I have come to realize that being the owner of my business and getting all the profit, that I prefer production over the one of a kind items. Looking at the bottom line I can make more money at production. If I was on a fixed salary the production work would for sure get tiresome. Fortunately I do both and do not get tired of either.

[Teamcasa]

Very good advise follows: Dave

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[Robatoy]

I've been at it since 1976 and still love the trade. There will always be nasty moments as in any relationship but looking back over the last

30 years.....can't think of any. Things are better now, because my operation is much smaller and I no longer feel the financial pressure. If wood is in your blood, you'll do well. (I don't mean that in an Al Gore sorta way.) I believe that any career is rewarding if you love what you're doing. Last study indicated only 5% of the working people actually love their job. The break-down of that 5%, was that 80%+ were professionals...the other 20% must have been wooddorkers. Then again, 70% of all statistics are bullshi*t.

Other than that, it would help you to remember that the only stupid questions are the ones that weren't asked. Never pretend you know what you're doing if you don't. If none of your co-workers want to teach you anything...get the hell out of there!

In the nether regions of the 6th dimension, there float about a myriad of mistakes that haven't been made yet. Several will have your name engraved on them. When I interview, I pretty much go along with that well drafted list of Mr. Jim Ray, especially the math and hustle part, but at the end of the interview I will ask: "Tell me 3 of your biggest screw-ups and how they tought you anything."... the way that question is handled will most likely make up my mind about the applicant.

Oh... and to add to Jim's list....the applicant better have a sense of humour.

[phildcrowNOSPAM]

Thanks, everybody.

Having been a former business owner (swimming pools, GC more or less), I agree with what Jim Ray said about good employees. I've experienced first-hand that you can teach anybody a job, but if they're a turd, they're a turd and there's nothing you can do to change that.

Regarding The Fingerless Fellow, a friend of mine's dad has an old 6" jointer, and I went over there to edge joint some stock. This was a couple of weeks ago, before I got my very own brand new Ridgid jointer (Beep, beep!). We rolled the thing out, sandpapered some of the rust off the table and fence and plugged it in. I noticed that the return spring on the guard wasn't working, so I made a mental note to be EEEEXTRA careful when running the stock through.

Anyway, about half way through, Jay's dad came out and started talking to us, and he, too, had lost the tip of his index finger. To a jointer. To THAT jointer. The one with the still-broken guard.

DUUUUHH!

-Phil Crow

[Mark]

If you don't mind dust so thick you can't see the other end of the shop and doing repititious work that they haven't invented a machine for - you'll love it. Don't expect to start at the artist level. Reliability is a big plus along with knowing how to operate the machinery. Mark

[Tom Dacon]

I missed the OP on this because of my ISP's short-fuse policy on aging posts, but here's my take on it:

Cut lists come out of the design room.

You roll up a sheet goods carrier, set up the table saw, adjust the saw for each cut if it doesn't know how to do so itself, and run the sheet goods through until you get a components stack.

You take some of the components to the shelf hole driller and shove them in one end and they come out the other end drilled for the shelf supports.

Depending on your system, you take some of THOSE to the machine that drills the hinge holes, set 'em up, and drill the hinge holes.

You take everything that needs edge-banding to the edge-banding machine, and run them through, one edge at a time, filling up the glue pot whenever the light comes on.

You take some of the components, set 'em up as the carcasses, and air-staple them together.

You take the boxes and the shelves, and a bag of selected hardware, and run them out to the site.

You set 'em in place, fasten them to the studs, install the hardware, adjust the (purchased) doors for gap, slap the shelves in, and move off in a group to the tavern and call it a day.

Done any woodworking yet, that you can identify?

Oh, and by the way, if your owner is enlightened, he'll have a really good dust collector system, and the place will be clean.

And you throw away or hide any tapes that measure in inches, and use only metric ones.

Regards, Tom Dacon