Off Topic Southern roof

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I know someone here has this.
My barrel tile roof in Florida does not leak, yet. 25 years old. It is cement tile over tar paper and hot tar. When I have it replaced do I screw down the existing sheathing? replace sheathing (with what?) tar paper and hot tar? What I would call "Ice and water shield"? I am in a deed restricted community and cannot put on shingles or a built up steel roof. I like the terra cotta look anyway.
Ed
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On 2/18/2013 6:17 PM, Ed Ahern wrote:

I thought those were life time roofs.
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the tiles last but the waterproofing underneath gets destroyed by the heat the tiles were never expected to be waterproof, only to protect the sheathing from the sun Ed
"Leon" wrote in message
On 2/18/2013 6:17 PM, Ed Ahern wrote:

I thought those were life time roofs.
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On Monday, February 18, 2013 6:44:05 PM UTC-6, Ed Ahern wrote:

tiles were never expected to be waterproof, only to protect the sheathing from the sun
That doesn't sound right, to me.
One of those pre-Hurricane Andrew contractors must have installed that sheathing.
Sonny
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Ed Ahern wrote:

What *should* be under the tiles is 90# roofing material. It is much, much heavier than *tar paper* and has mineral grains embedded in it. You said it doesn't leak, what makes you think it is being destroyed?
In the unlikely event that you do get leaks and they are so profuse that they can't get fixed, you would...
1. tear off all tiles 2. maybe, tear off old 90# 3. hot mop on new 90# 4. put on new tiles, nailing the first course and affixing the rest with mortar 5. get a loan to pay for the above
--

dadiOH
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I myself don't worry too much about things that haven't happened. Plenty on my plate these past few years to sit and fret about things that haven't happened yet.

I howled after reading this. I do a lot of roof work and tile replacement and repair is in my toolbox as I have a good technician for small repairs, access to a huge tile boneyard, and work with a great tile installation sub contractor.
You have no idea how true #5 is... I LOVE tile work as it is hard to master, but << literally>> pays much, much better than anything else I do. By a long shot. A re-lay is one thing, but repairs.... Ahhhh....
Usually, my customers have already had tile repairs done incorrectly, and that makes me a referral from another customer. Since they are coming to me after they have had an unsuccessful dealing with a tile roof repair contractor and because I give them a written warranty (something unheard of on roof repairs) and because I have confidence in my troubleshooting and repair abilities, I get my price. Most tile repair guys screw up more than they fix, so they don't warranty their work or slip out of it if the warranty is exercised.
Like I said, I LOVE tile repairs. And OP's barrel tiles (if they are a true, two piece, clay extrusion) are the hardest tile roofs to trouble shoot and repair. They are the most expensive to repair of all roofs.
Robert
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I live in a community of 200 homes. All built around the same time by the same developer. It looks like we are losing about 10 roofs a year. 90# material may very well be what's underneath the tiles.(I did not know what to call it) Is the 90# material better than the "Ice & water" rubber shield or just different? I have seen them install both types, different houses. I'm just trying to be a informed consumer. Ed
"dadiOH" wrote in message

What *should* be under the tiles is 90# roofing material. It is much, much heavier than *tar paper* and has mineral grains embedded in it. You said it doesn't leak, what makes you think it is being destroyed?
In the unlikely event that you do get leaks and they are so profuse that they can't get fixed, you would...
1. tear off all tiles 2. maybe, tear off old 90# 3. hot mop on new 90# 4. put on new tiles, nailing the first course and affixing the rest with mortar 5. get a loan to pay for the above
--

dadiOH
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Ed Ahern wrote:

Losing them to what? What is wrong/happening to them?

Is it better? I have no idea. I've seen "rubber" membranes used but not under tile. Keep in mind I haven't seen all that many tile roofs. Or ther kinds, for that matter.
What I *do* know is that there has to be some way of afixing the tile to the menbrane. One way is to use mortar. That will stick well to the 90# felt assuming a low-moderate roof pitch; no more than, I would guess, 5:12.
Another way is to naol wood battens onto the roof and then nail the tiles to those. Somehow, that does not appeal to me; I'd just as soon not have 100s & 100s of nails going through whatever is supposed to keep out the water. Nor am I all that keen on having all those wood battens up there getting wet and trapping water; as you pointed out, water does get under the tiles.
There are probably other ways too. A good way to inform yourself would be to browse thew sites of tile manufacturers and get their installation PDFs to read. Here are a couple one to get you started...
http://www.rooftile.com/information/tile-information/technical-information.html
http://www.hansonrooftile.com/index.php?p=technical_information/installation_and_specifications.php&s=technical_information
--

dadiOH
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Thank you for the links, they will be helpful.
by losing I mean starting to leak, mostly in valleys and around penetrations. the tiles look good but the roof underlayment is failing. I was able to look at one being stripped and it looks like a dried out riverbed, all cracked and separated.
Ed
"dadiOH" wrote in message
Ed Ahern wrote:

Losing them to what? What is wrong/happening to them?

Is it better? I have no idea. I've seen "rubber" membranes used but not under tile. Keep in mind I haven't seen all that many tile roofs. Or ther kinds, for that matter.
What I *do* know is that there has to be some way of afixing the tile to the menbrane. One way is to use mortar. That will stick well to the 90# felt assuming a low-moderate roof pitch; no more than, I would guess, 5:12.
Another way is to naol wood battens onto the roof and then nail the tiles to those. Somehow, that does not appeal to me; I'd just as soon not have 100s & 100s of nails going through whatever is supposed to keep out the water. Nor am I all that keen on having all those wood battens up there getting wet and trapping water; as you pointed out, water does get under the tiles.
There are probably other ways too. A good way to inform yourself would be to browse thew sites of tile manufacturers and get their installation PDFs to read. Here are a couple one to get you started...
http://www.rooftile.com/information/tile-information/technical-information.html
http://www.hansonrooftile.com/index.php?p=technical_information/installation_and_specifications.php&s=technical_information
--

dadiOH
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These were roofs that used organic felt underlayment, and it has dried out, become brittle and started to fail. This is typical, and in the harsh sunshine and temps of the South, this is the norm.
The underlayment fails because it dries out completely. The dried riverbed look is caused by all solvents and oils of the asphalt leaving the felt due to high heat over long periods, and the cotton fiber used to manufacture the felt rotting away. If you pick up those pieces of felt paper you would find them more fragile than a thin potato chip.
Once the underlayment fails, the roof fails.
When I do a relay of any sort (sometimes it is just the side with the most sun exposure on a roof that fails) I always use ice and water shield. I prefer CertainTeed or TAMKO, but avoid Owens Corning like the plague. It is thin, inflexible, has poor adhesion, and its lack of thickness makes it hazardous to walk on. I don't want a tear in the surface I am walking on if it is a 6/12 or better slope.
Ice and water shield is availble in many different forms. Get the thickest stuff you can that is flexible, and use that for underlayment. Follow the manufacturer's instructions for installation of your specific tile that are required for your specific region to the letter after that.
Robert
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Roof ventilation is needed. The roof needs cooling from the inside. End vents help - end fan that turns on by thermostat is great. Use only when it is needed. Top ridge vent with eave vents is great also.
Martin - It was only 115 this last summer. I have a ridge vent now.
On 2/20/2013 2:05 AM, snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

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wrote:

s

You should always check your installation guidelines for each roofing product. Ventilation isn't just a clever move.
MOST residential roofing manufacturers will void the warranty of your roof if you don't have the proper type and amount of ventilation installed.
Robert
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not

r ther

Rubber, extruded styrene, 90# mineral faced felt, and a couple of others are now the standard for re-laying tiles. Two layers of 15# or one layer of 30# is still used by tract home or semi custom builders because it cuts down the cost of installation by thousands per house.

the

felt

Not possible. If you had practical experience in this you would know that cement does not stick to felt paper. If so, not for long. As organic felts dry out they shrink, and as the solvents leave the asphalt, it contributes a lot to this. As a matter of fact, the paper can shrink enough to tear itself on long enough runs. At the worst end, it can crack and destroy itself as a substrate. Regardless, this shrinkage will easily destroy the bond (if any) of the cement to the felt.
Unless you have another cite for the information that you "know", it would be good for you to read information that you yourself posted, you would see that NOWHERE in the 200 page installation guide is mortar mentioned or accepted as as any kind of installation tool or medium.
The oldest tile houses I have repaired were built in the 1930s. Unless it happened well before that and it was a special tile I know of no tile ever made that was made to be set in mortar or to be adhered by it.

to

100s

wet

ALL, yes ALL tile roofs leak. It is the nature of their design. Because you don't see a stain on your ceiling doesn't mean water isn't penetrating. The idea behind a good unerlayment and installation procedure is to recognize this fact as part of the roof itself and to deal with it. A few drops leaking in here and there will simply spread out over a lot of the roof surface and simply dry up. This can go on for decades, and as long as the roof underlayment is intact, there is no reason it can't. It is part of the design.
dadiOH, I have seen you post here for years and you have been a great voice of information and encouragement to others as long as I can remember. This is serious business, though. Tile roofs and their installation is a highly technical field and requires not only complete adherence to manufacturer's specifications in general, but to any specifications that have been developed for your local region. This is not the old days where you slapped down a bunch of tiles and if it didn't leak it was a success.
There are dozens of issues to consider. On tile roofs you have tile creep on very hot days where the tiles sitting out on a 100 degree day will actually expand and tear up flashing details. Metal flashings flex, manufacturer's flaws in tiles will cause them to crack, and any local conditions that exist must be considered. The installation will be different from manufacturer to manufacturer, and then it will be specific to the type of tile, further narrowed in scope to the actual slope and profile of the roof.
So be careful when you opine or direct these things if you don't have personal experience. Your own opinions run counter to the installation procedures accepted and spelled out as requirements in the very information links you posted.
For example, 1 X 2 battens are required here for any lugged tiles. Lugged tiles are generally used in 4/12 pitches and required on anything higher. It is a manufacturer's requirement. I don't know of anyone in the US that still makes a low slope lugless tiles. Our local requirements from the manufacturers are specific as to the nails to be used to affix the required battens, the nail patterns used to affix them, the spacing of battens, provision of weep holes, and the specification of how high each batten must be held off the underlayment.
To address your concerns about the nails and their penetrations, all underlayment is required to be self healing so that it will seal around the nails. Modified bitumen, 90# felt, ice and water shield, and even 30# felt all do this.
There are endless reams of documents that spell out flashing details, acceptable flashing materials, mechanical fastening systems, specs for adhesives and sealants, penetration details and on and on.
My point is, and I say this with respect, this is a highly technical field that one needs to make sure they completely fluent and confident in their information.
Robert
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snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

No it doesn't but it does stick to the mineral grains embedded in it. Both chemically and - especially - mechanically. It seems to work well on roofs with moderate pitch. I refer you to the Florida Roofing, Sheet metal and Airconditioning Contractors Association manual for "Concrete and Clay Roof Tile Installation". OP might like it too as it details various systems.

We recently had to repair a section on a valley on our 17 year old tile roof. The repair was necessitated not by any failure of tile or membrane but by what I shall call "contractor shortcuts". Or, "contractor laziness". Or even "contractor stupidity" :(
The repair wasn't a big deal, pop up tiles, do repairs, put tiles back down. The purpose of this narrative is to affirm that the tiles do pop up fairly easily. In about half, IRC, the tile released from the mortar which stayed bonded to the membrane, in the rest, the whole works came up, the mineral grains in the felt releasing from it.
Personally, I don't find the relative ease of removing the tiles to be a problem; there *is* a bond, albeit not a super strong one, but that bond coupled with the weight of the tiles has kept them in place for 17 years and four hurricanes, one of which was of considerable duration and with sustained winds close to 100 mph, gusts to 150 mph.

I'll have to go read it :)

Indeed; the tiles are mainly a pretty-pretty.

I'm paranoid, I still prefer to avoid penetrations.
My FIL put a standing seam metal roof on his house (my wife wound up with it). Nice roof, long lasting, nailed on with those little rubbery grommets under the nails. IT doesn't leak as far as I can tell but these grommets are way less rubbery than they were when new; the UV, I would guess.

I agree totally. As I tried to indicate, I'm a consumer, not a contractor and when I post on something like this I am talking from my own limited and non-technical experience. However, I do observe and try to figure out why something is done the way it is. And when something fails, I try to figure out why it failed. An example: I have some corner bead on a soffit that has developed a crack along the edge; in one place, about 24" of mud fell down. Why? Best I can figure is that the corner bead wasn't fastened well enough.
And I have encountered similar failures many, many times with all sorts of things...houses, autos, furniture, you name it. All attributable to the aforementioned "contractor shortcuts/lazziness/stupidity".
Robert, if all contractors were as knowledgeable and conscientous as you appear to be it would be a better world. May your tribe increase, ojala que si.
--

dadiOH
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dadiOH wrote:

I just did. Both link to the Florida Roofing, Sheet metal and Airconditioning Contractors Association manual for "Concrete and Clay Roof Tile Installation" I just mentioned.
You didn't see the details re mudding in tiles?
--

dadiOH
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Yes, I did. I will confess that you had me worried enough to go back and re-read. As suspected, the mortar notes for were details, eaves, rakes, hips, and for closing up and sealing intersecting roof lines of dissimilar pitches. It can also be used for wind deflection, which is something I didn't know about. We either have no wind or tornadoes here. Not much to worry about in between.
My response was to your comment

the

t

I had this picture of mudding in entire roofs (no doubt, someone has tried it, though) and setting the tiles in it like saltillo tile in a thickset application.
So.... I hope Ed go something out of all of this.
Next, I thank you for taking my comments the right way and not starting to foam at the mouth when someone questions you as some here tend to do. I was counting on the fact that I have always seen you conduct yourself as a gentleman, and as I thought you would, you responded that same way. And thanks for the comments on my contracting direction; I do try to do the best I can. After all, it is my name on the door.
But a really big thanks to you for finding that installation guide. On my second visit I noticed that just about every heavy hitter in the world of roofing that makes water proofing agents and materials, metal fasteners, adhesives, flashings, tiles, panels, etc. participated in the construction of that manual. I has every reference to the industry standards and manufacturer's standards (chapter and verse is often hard to come by when you need it!) that is needed when consulting in or investigating a tile roof.
It is now safely tucked away on my hard drive and will be used for future reference. If you were here, I would gladly buy you a cigar!
Robert
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snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

Check out Section Three. It starts at pp 55 in the pdf and deals with mudding in field tiles (in addition to lots of additional info as you noted). They do hedge a bit, showing nails in every fifth coarse; however, there are lots of roofs - mine included - without any nails save in the starter coarse.

Right. It is more of a glop of mortar under the tiles.

You mean besides hopeless confusion? :)

I ferreted it out when building my house (I was the general), glad you find it useful. Much of it was - and still is - way over my head but if necessary in the future I can always study it a bit and get a handle on what might concern me.

Cuban?
--

dadiOH
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Hah! Better than that!
I was thinking of a fine Nicaraguan maduro matched up to a good bonded bourbon.
Mmmmm......
Robert
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Yes, Ed is listening.If I'm not mistaken: 90# will work, has for ages. Ice and water(rubber peal and stick) is better note to self- avoid Owens Corning battens nailed or screwed through underlayment tile held down by mortar and weight of product Thank you all, it has helped
In talking to a current roofing contractor, just around the corner the new? thing is to not penetrate the underlayment with nails or screws but to two part epoxy the tiles to the underlayment. I would think it would virtually eliminate the possibility of leaking but make it impossible to replace broken tile (I am on a golf course and yes I get shelled) I will research more and report findings. Again, thank you.
Ed
wrote in message wrote:

Hah! Better than that!
I was thinking of a fine Nicaraguan maduro matched up to a good bonded bourbon.
Mmmmm......
Robert
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"Ed Ahern" wrote:

--------------------------------------------------------------- If you work with epoxy, a 1,500 Watt heat gun is your friend.
It will soften epoxy enough to break it's bond.
Lew
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