Re: Cylinder v thermal store

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Thanks for your moderation :-)
Would you reccomend another supplier Andy? You are quite right about quality and shipping. If there any weakness' the voyage and handling at the docks will find it!
Chris
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On Sun, 17 Aug 2003 10:56:58 -0400, Chris Harris

Given your logistics situation, I think I would check with local suppliers and see where they source products and then stick with major manufacturers for supply.
The other thing that I would do is to identify the significant sea freight firms with an operation at your end and work backwards to find a good one in terms of packing and freighting. Is there somebody that your company uses for example?
I am doing something quite similar at the moment with a dust extractor that I am having shipped from the U.S. by sea and it was certainly better to work backwards....
.andy
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I have the freight under control. I Will be in the UK for a holiday/shopping trip for the new(old) house renovation job and will be shipping a lot of stuff. I will get it consolodated and shipped as one lot. If I think I have enough I will buy an old end of life container and ship the lot in that and have an onsite store to boot.
I will be buying some stuff locally, showstoppers, like the boiler, and probably will get a local firm to import the cylinder/heatbank/whatever for me. Then it's their problem to replace it in case of damage during shipping. Well in the case of a standard cylinder, vented or not, it's an off the shelf product anyway.
Now do you know any other firms, doing a similar service to DPS, so that I can at least get comparative quotes?
Chris
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On Sun, 17 Aug 2003 12:25:20 -0400, Chris Harris

Do you specifically want a thermal store or heat bank solution as opposed to a conventional cylinder of some kind?
There are the major cylinder companies like Albion, Range and Telford as a starting point.
You could also look at Gledhill, although they do not appear to be very approachable in the sense that they say that they only work through installers....
.andy
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wrote:

He should go for one as it is only solution to a give a full CH and DHW electrical backup. Heat banks/thermal stores are simple and reliable. Heat banks resist scale. Best avoid an unvented cylinder.
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I like the idea. I was going with a pressurised system. Telford Tornado Stainless steel if I go down that road. Local supplier, I have an account, 15% off, no import worries etc..
But having read about heat banks, and learnt a lot about them this weekend I want to at least explore the options especially if it's going to be more efficeient as it's a big house :-)

IMM mentioned them too, thanks I'll look around
Chris
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Albion and Range are big boys making mainly standard products, but will custom build to suit (at a price). DPS are smallish but leading edge in technology having a few patents about. All use standard of-the-shelf components.
http://www.abion-online.co.uk http://www.range-cylinder.co.uk (go to thermal storage)
What you "need" is an "integrated" heat bank with: vented, with integrated feed and expansion tank, and all electrics wired in, with electric backup (DP and Range do these), Albion only do thermal stores. Heat banks are now virtually the norm.
http://www,glendhill.net, Do heat banks and make excellent stuff. Not cheap, but will deal with a self builder, but they mainly deal with large customers such as large house developers. Some of their components are dedicated to their products.
Sizing up an integrated heat banks is different to sizing a DHW only model. One being larger.
Note: a vented heat bank can be on the same level as your highest rads.
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Thanks for all that, I'll do some more surfing. Any reason why the heat bank can't be on the ground floor with a header tank above the level of the rads?
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How much does a spare heat exchanger cost? I think that along with a flow switch, and anything else that I find as unique to these beasts, one will have to go onto the spares list, as if it breaks it's a showstopper until I could get one flown in.
I've written to the DPS heatweb people and I'll probably contact the others as I read more about their products.
Chris
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Well it doesn't really make much difference. If I'm going for one of these systems there is the posibility that the cylinder itself will fail. I'm not going to carry a complete spare system.
But if the only flow through any part of the cylinder is closed system water then corrosion should be minimal.
I'll keep looking though.
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http://www.gea-ecoflex.com
You want a 14 plate brazed plate heat excahnger for thermal store use.
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Very soft, no scale. Here in Stanley it's properly treated so it's not too harsh, but in some parts of the islands it eats copper cylinders and things like ordinary steel kettles for breakfast, no make that before breakfast. I guess it's because most of the water comes from peaty sources so is acidic.

It needs somebody to take the plunge and fit one, if it prooves to be a good hassle free economic system after a few years then it'll catch on.
I'm prepared to take the risk, if I think the rewards will be justified.
Chris
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You would be better off with a heat bank with a plate heat-exchanger. If the exchanger corrodes, then you change it, which is 0.5 - 1 hour job. It is small, the size of a medium sized thick book. As you realised, changing a whole thermal store cylinder because a coil corroded can be expensive and inconvenient. As long as the correct ratio of inhibitor is in the system and it is changed 4-5 years then the whole lot will last a lifetime. At least corrosion will not fail it. The only part that comes into contact with maybe corrosive fresh water is the plate heat-exchanger. You could ensure that you have "full-bore" isolating valves between the pump and the other side of the plate heat-exchanger then no big drain down if either the plate or the pump goes. Even if a heat bank cylinder goes, in your case where availability is the problem, a normal vented cylinder can be used, by taking the parts from the heat bank and adapting them. Not difficult once you understand the operation.
You never know, you may start a trend. You could become the importers and agents. :)
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That's what I'm thinking. And that is the route that I am investigating at the moment.
How long do DPS usually take to get back to enquiries. I sent one off on Sunday and haven't had an acknowledgment from them yet. I would have thought that two working days was long enough to clear their emails from the weekend.
It

Good point, I'll specify them in case they are not already there.
Even if a heat bank cylinder goes, in your case

That is what I was thinking.
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I would have thought they would have responded by now. Try a fax. Have you contacted Range? They do thermal store/heat banks.
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Chris,
Try Albion (the Mainsflow) and Range.
BTW, DPS make some excellent equipment. Andy is on about how a few small items were shipped. A large item will be packaged by the shippers.
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Sorry, can't resist this - You have always preached in the past about how good combis are. Why don't you have one then? Did you have some constraints that meant a Combi wasn't the way to go?
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A Microgenus is a combi.
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I've calculated all of that, using first principles rather dodgy downloadable software that gives generic answers, often the wrong ones. Only thing I have to do is use them (their software) to calculate the heat bank size. I'd rather see some good figures, as Andy mentioned, so that I could calculate from scratch myself though.
The Heatweb site is very broken, I had to change browser three times to find one that worked with their site, which doesn't say much for the rest of their products. The articles were interesting, once I could view them properly.

That's what I was implying.

Worcster danesmoor, myson, mistral etc.. they pretty much all use rielo (sp?) burners anyway.

Another assumption. I haven't heard of one being used with an oil burner, but there are solar systems around. I'll ask around next week.

They are commonly used though so sourcing parts is not a problem.

Got all that done.

Not true, some combis do it now.

Yes of course.

I'll check

LOL, your geography might be ok, but your political geography is way off. There are still no contacts with Argentina here. We get stuff from Chile, but the quality is usually low to crap. The same comments about quality would/do apply to Argentine products. Those countries mainly use mains gas anyway, at least down south, which is only available here in cylinders.
Chris
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I have found no problems with their site. But I am not accessing it from half way around the world.

Oil or gas it doesn't matter.

Which model. I am a pro, not amateur, and know of no combi that has an integral electric backup.

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