Re: Cylinder v thermal store

You responded with one liners and never explained. If UK regs don't apply to you it is up to you to say so. You were given the reasons why a DIYer can't install an unvented cylinder in the UK and a better alternative. That is not preaching.

The DPS sites give a load of on-line, and downloadable, design software. What you need is calculate the rad sizes, then this will give you the boiler size. Calulate the heat bank/thermal store size with the appropriate software on the DPS site. Then you can get a heat bank that has all the controls, motorised valves, elecrical box, etc in one package. Look at the DPS site for customers examples. All you need do is connect up the boilers flow and return and the radiator flow and return to the appropriate connections, the power, clock and the room stat. These can be pre-wired into the box and it is a matter of running a wire out to each component.

Then it is a matter of sizing up the CH pipes.

Firstly get kit which can be serviced with available parts where you are, and that locals can service. What is the most common oil boiler with parts available on the islands? Get one of these. Heat banks are simple and service free. The locals probably will not have heard of them, but the logic is easy to follow for even a dumb plumber. Unvented cylinders require pressure controls and if these go then you have no hot water and you need to source the parts and no hot water.

Try DPS as a first stop, I'm sure they have a design service. They may throw that in for free if you buy a simple heat bank from them. They will need a plan of your house. This probably can be on A4 paper, with room sizes, what type of walls and floors, windows sizes, single or double glazed, insulation levels, boiler location, heat bank location, etc.

A TIP: Go for an "integrated" heat bank, which provides CH and DHW, with a large backup electric immersion. If the oil boiler is down then electricity will heat the heat bank cylinder, and hence the house and hot water until the boiler is up. Essential in a part of the world where most parts have to be imported and may take time with long outage times.

Integrated heat banks are the only devices that give full CH/DHW backup.

Heat bank use standard heating pumps. I assume these are available on the islands off-the-shelf. They operate on flow switches, which probably are not available on the islands, so it may be worth your while ordering one of these as a spare, just in case.

Is all equipment British? Don't you import any from Argentina? If so are they local makes or imported Italian or Spanish?

Reply to
IMM
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I thought you said that you had an Ideal combi boiler......

Why? If there is a problem with a simple thing like a heat exchanger in a box, a more complex assembly like a heatbank would be even more questionnable.

They used the Royal Mail...... :-)

GEA Ecobraze, which are a good product as long as they are in a suitable enclosure and properly packed......

In view of what I experienced, they are not on my recommended list. .andy

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Reply to
Andy Hall

I've calculated all of that, using first principles rather dodgy downloadable software that gives generic answers, often the wrong ones. Only thing I have to do is use them (their software) to calculate the heat bank size. I'd rather see some good figures, as Andy mentioned, so that I could calculate from scratch myself though.

The Heatweb site is very broken, I had to change browser three times to find one that worked with their site, which doesn't say much for the rest of their products. The articles were interesting, once I could view them properly.

That's what I was implying.

Worcster danesmoor, myson, mistral etc.. they pretty much all use rielo (sp?) burners anyway.

Another assumption. I haven't heard of one being used with an oil burner, but there are solar systems around. I'll ask around next week.

They are commonly used though so sourcing parts is not a problem.

Not true, some combis do it now.

Yes of course.

I'll check

LOL, your geography might be ok, but your political geography is way off. There are still no contacts with Argentina here. We get stuff from Chile, but the quality is usually low to crap. The same comments about quality would/do apply to Argentine products. Those countries mainly use mains gas anyway, at least down south, which is only available here in cylinders.

Chris

Reply to
Chris Harris

Thanks for your moderation :-)

Would you reccomend another supplier Andy? You are quite right about quality and shipping. If there any weakness' the voyage and handling at the docks will find it!

Chris

Reply to
Chris Harris

Given your logistics situation, I think I would check with local suppliers and see where they source products and then stick with major manufacturers for supply.

The other thing that I would do is to identify the significant sea freight firms with an operation at your end and work backwards to find a good one in terms of packing and freighting. Is there somebody that your company uses for example?

I am doing something quite similar at the moment with a dust extractor that I am having shipped from the U.S. by sea and it was certainly better to work backwards....

.andy

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Reply to
Andy Hall

I have the freight under control. I Will be in the UK for a holiday/shopping trip for the new(old) house renovation job and will be shipping a lot of stuff. I will get it consolodated and shipped as one lot. If I think I have enough I will buy an old end of life container and ship the lot in that and have an onsite store to boot.

I will be buying some stuff locally, showstoppers, like the boiler, and probably will get a local firm to import the cylinder/heatbank/whatever for me. Then it's their problem to replace it in case of damage during shipping. Well in the case of a standard cylinder, vented or not, it's an off the shelf product anyway.

Now do you know any other firms, doing a similar service to DPS, so that I can at least get comparative quotes?

Chris

Reply to
Chris Harris

Chris,

Try Albion (the Mainsflow) and Range.

BTW, DPS make some excellent equipment. Andy is on about how a few small items were shipped. A large item will be packaged by the shippers.

Reply to
IMM

Do you specifically want a thermal store or heat bank solution as opposed to a conventional cylinder of some kind?

There are the major cylinder companies like Albion, Range and Telford as a starting point.

You could also look at Gledhill, although they do not appear to be very approachable in the sense that they say that they only work through installers....

.andy

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Reply to
Andy Hall

holiday/shopping

He should go for one as it is only solution to a give a full CH and DHW electrical backup. Heat banks/thermal stores are simple and reliable. Heat banks resist scale. Best avoid an unvented cylinder.

Reply to
IMM

I have found no problems with their site. But I am not accessing it from half way around the world.

Oil or gas it doesn't matter.

Which model. I am a pro, not amateur, and know of no combi that has an integral electric backup.

Reply to
IMM

holiday/shopping

Albion and Range are big boys making mainly standard products, but will custom build to suit (at a price). DPS are smallish but leading edge in technology having a few patents about. All use standard of-the-shelf components.

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(go to thermal storage)

What you "need" is an "integrated" heat bank with: vented, with integrated feed and expansion tank, and all electrics wired in, with electric backup (DP and Range do these), Albion only do thermal stores. Heat banks are now virtually the norm.

http://www,glendhill.net, Do heat banks and make excellent stuff. Not cheap, but will deal with a self builder, but they mainly deal with large customers such as large house developers. Some of their components are dedicated to their products.

Sizing up an integrated heat banks is different to sizing a DHW only model. One being larger.

Note: a vented heat bank can be on the same level as your highest rads.

Reply to
IMM

C1-5070 and C1-7090 - took me ages to find the brochure having just moved. You could be right though - looks like it might only be for the hot water.

Chris

Reply to
Chris Harris

Thanks for all that, I'll do some more surfing. Any reason why the heat bank can't be on the ground floor with a header tank above the level of the rads?

Reply to
Chris Harris

I like the idea. I was going with a pressurised system. Telford Tornado Stainless steel if I go down that road. Local supplier, I have an account,

15% off, no import worries etc..

But having read about heat banks, and learnt a lot about them this weekend I want to at least explore the options especially if it's going to be more efficeient as it's a big house :-)

IMM mentioned them too, thanks I'll look around

Chris

Reply to
Chris Harris

Mistral Boilers in Telford. I'm sure they are just plain oil boilers.

Reply to
IMM

The only full backup for a "combi" is for the Potterton Powermax (well a combined primary storage unit, but still all in one case), but this is natural gas/LPG, not oil.

Reply to
IMM

This has never been substantiated....

.andy

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Reply to
Andy Hall

Lets have a look. Yes in Telford. They do a good range split into five categories. Combi, Kitchen, Sealed system, Diamond, and Boiler House. Their combis only go to 26kW though and I need about 40kW.

I've had a look at their combis at their dealers here and they are the best built CH boiler that I have seen. Nicely and very well thought out layout, easy access everywhere. The immersion is in the front just to the right of the burner IIRC..... Just checked the brochure and it is.

Re-reading the brochure, it looks like the immersion heater gives full backup. They claim it is a unique feature, and from what you say it seems that way.

I don't want one though because the dealer doesn't over a servicing service and his spares are bit on the pricey side.

Chris

Reply to
Chris Harris

How much does a spare heat exchanger cost? I think that along with a flow switch, and anything else that I find as unique to these beasts, one will have to go onto the spares list, as if it breaks it's a showstopper until I could get one flown in.

I've written to the DPS heatweb people and I'll probably contact the others as I read more about their products.

Chris

Reply to
Chris Harris

Andy, grow up. Keep polishing the CAT boots.

Reply to
IMM

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