Kitchen refitting - status

[simulet]

Hi,

I thought I shall inform you how we are getting on with our project (I also need some further advice)...

The kitchen has been tiled (all the way to the wall to make for freestanding units) by a professional tiler, since we got granite tiles and we were not quite prepared to do our first tiling job with those thick ones. I think we were right, since the tiler broke two of his "blades" on the job... Skimmed all the wall, but one - unfortunately hubby got called out for work two days during the Easter weekend, so did not get time to finish the skimming and plastering. Hubby did an excellent job at plastering and skimming - did not realise he had it in him!

Now for the advice; we want to plumb in the tap and a new dishwasher. The old tap had two levers (one cold and one hot), but we are moving to the one lever so i guess the plumbing is not that straight forward. Additionally we have to add a dishwasher - so have to make a new connection (to cold and hot water) plus to the soil drainage. How hard is it to make a new water connection? Any advice on hand?

My one concern is sometimes back I saw on Watchdog where some people were complaining that they could not drink the water from the tap - eventual tests showed that the plumbing was done by cowboys and they did not clean the "flue acid" (I guess that is what it's called) and that caused some sort of corrosion and other chemical reaction with the copper pipes, hence making the water slightly acidic and unfit for human consumption. How can we avoid such pitfalls?

Thanks for all the advice Simulet

[Ian Stirling]

It's used to clean slightly dirty metal so solder will stick.

IMO, this is very unlikely to be the cause. Does anyone have any clue as to what the cause of this might be?

[big al - Peoples Pal]

Dishwashers usually only have one water connection which you can connect to either the hot or cold water pipe (well the AAA rated Smeg I fitted last week only has one pipe and can be fitted to either hot or cold water). I think you're better to connect to the cold water if you live in a hard water area and want the water softening/cleaning process to work more effectively.

As to the plumbing, I was very wary of doing this myself, but having done it now I don't know what I was worried about. However my advice is to plan out what exactly you need to do and carry the work early on a weekday morning and should the worst come to the worst at least you will not be paying for a weekend emergency callout fee. I had a problem with the hot water airlocking, but a hose from the cold mains water tap to the hot water tap seemed to sort that problem out after a few minutes.

If you use plastic barrier pipe with good push-fit fittings (Of the cheaper fittings Hep2 seemed a lot more secure than Speedfit to my mind) you won't have to worry about flux.

-- Big Al - The Peoples Pal

[the yorkshire dalesman]

flux: used to stop copper oxide forming on the copper pipe/connector as it heated up & before it is hot enough to take the solder. Solder will not form a bond with copper contaminated with a surface coating of copper oxide (you can recognize it easily, it is dark brown to black). A surface coating of copper oxide forms naturally on all pure copper exposed to the air. The process starts within minutes & makes the copper hopeless for soldering in less than an hour.

Flux is usually smeared on after the copper & fitting contact area has been polished with steel wool to get the oxide off.

- flux is also often contained in the solder in 'threads' running lengthwise in the solder like lettering in pink seaside rock.

(I guess that is what it's called) and

Far too much flux has been used then: should clear itself after 15 mins or so (very often IMHE only 2 or 3 minutes is needed) of water running thru the copper pipe, though I must say it sounds more like someone going overboard with a complaint & Watchdog fanning the flames, if you see what I mean.

How can we avoid such pitfalls?

after soldering, flush the system by turning on the tap(s). Allow hot water to run if possible it will dissolve the flux more quickly.

If you have a *real* problem you might need to disconnect the pipe run & flush it out with hot water, eg by improvising hose pipe connections & loops or whatever other Heath Robinson method you can manage. Very unlikely you'll get it that bad, though.

[the yorkshire dalesman]

Just a dark machiavellian thought - that watchdog prog couldn't have been a spoiler planted by a manufacturer or seller of push fit plumbing kit would it?

[Tim Mitchell]

Sounds like typical watchdog uninformed rubbish. You just run the tap for a few minutes and it flushes out.

[simulet]

I think it was an entire estate that was affected - mind you the houses are no older than 3 years old, and the problems were gradual until it became a full blown thing throughout the estate. An independent investigation suggested that the flux could be the root of all evil.

After googling, I came up with the information on compression fittings, as well as push fit, and we exchanged the copy pipe to the tap for a flexible hose. Yesterday hubby took only 15 minutes to add new tap. One thing is now to make a tee connection on the cold water pipe to divide into tap and dishwasher. I guess next time I should trust hubby's diy competence a bit more :)

Almost finished with the electrical connections, and we still have that artex ceiling to complete - one more skim and we are there. Thanks all for the tips.

simulet

[Owain]

"simulet" wrote | I think it was an entire estate that was affected - mind you the | houses are no older than 3 years old, and the problems were gradual | until it became a full blown thing throughout the estate. An | independent investigation suggested that the flux could be the root of | all evil.

I thought that story was about the use of leaded solder on drinking water piping, nothing to do with flux (although possibly the acid in the flux increased the release of lead from the solder).

Owain

[Ian Stirling]

Can anyone think of a problem that would cause persistant staining for months though?

[Tim Mitchell]

Persistent staining of what? (have I missed something here?)

[Owain]

"Ian Stirling" wrote | Can anyone think of a problem that would cause persistant | staining for months though?

Please, this isn't uk.embarassing.medical.conditions

Owain

[Ian Stirling]

I wish people wouldn't take the piss.

[Ian Stirling]

The watchdog program referred to ongoing problems with the pipes, staining of washbowls, .... Not just one-off problems as the flux dissolved.

[the yorkshire dalesman]

Even if someone had left a huge tub of flux inside something like the hot water cylinder, I can't believe the problem would persist beyond a few weeks of running water & certainly wouldn't get worse with time. Flux is soluble & would clear itself within a few weeks at the most of regular use of taps.

A later poster suggested it could have been use of a rogue formula solder, OTOH simple use of regular leaded solder doesn't ring true as the cause. Leadless solder only came in the 1980s - there's millions of houses out there with water systems soldered up in lead solder. You won't know from taste, the concern which banned it is due to long term effects of microscopic lead absorbtion by the body & the mind.

More likely it sounds to me like cross contamination from either fittings or the waste system by backflow or syphoning. This is why things like washing machine connectors, outside taps etc must now incorporate one-way valves (called 'check valves'). Contamination like that *would* get worse in time. So the 'flue' you mention wouldn't be 'flux' but perhaps some sort of pipe? perhaps even from a rogue connection into the central heating secondary system? Or some other frightening misconnection.... my mind boggles...too much lead....

HTH

[the yorkshire dalesman]

ah...flue...flue....flue....acid... May have got it at last!

Did the houses have condensing boilers? These have a flue drain for condensate formed in the flue. This condensate should be run into a foul sewer. Was it somehow discharging or leaking into the water primary? Another heating fault which might occur if the filling loop for the CH secondary was not removed. Both faults would give an unpleasant taste to drinking water.

Sorry about being so slow on this problem.

[martin.shaw11]

The canteen chef at work had a kitchen refit, followed by regular bouts of food poisoning for every member of his family over a period of weeks.

Environmental health were called. The conclusion was that the plastic pipe was contaminated, they speculated that the pipe used had been stored for a long period with the bag open before install. The pipes were filled with some kind of bug killer and left to soak for a while, then flushed. All OK. I have no axe to grind here, I am a big fan of plastic, especially PolyPlumb.

Best wishes Martin