My sister-in-law in Manchester is having a huge job done in her basement to cure dampness. I'm not at all sure that this was necessary - she is following the advice of a builder she contacted who told her she needed to put in a damp course.
It occurs to me now that it is very hard to get good advice, since it must be in the builder's interest to recommend a big job.
How can one get a true unbiassed opinion in such a case?
I should say that the kitchen (and a bathroom) are in the basement of her house, which I would estimate dates from 1870 or so. I never saw any damp which did not seem to me to be normal in a kitchen, from cooking, kettles, etc.
use a surveyor to define the works and create a written report (AKA a survey) then set a builder on to complete the works to the specification that the surveyor laid out in the survey, being careful to insist on stage payments and late finishing penalty clauses.
"Timothy Murphy" wrote | My sister-in-law in Manchester is having a huge job done in | her basement to cure dampness. | I'm not at all sure that this was necessary - | she is following the advice of a builder she contacted | who told her she needed to put in a damp course.
A "damp proof course" will not cure damp in a basement. It just stops damp from the ground rising up walls above the ground. The only way to remove penetrating moisture damp in a basement is to properly tank it, i.e. make it waterproof. This usually *is* a big job, doing walls, floors, possibly external land drains etc.
If the cause of damp isn't penetrating moisture, but is down to condensation and inadequate ventilation, then tanking will not cure it.
It would be worth checking that the work is being done to Building Regulations standards and, as it's a big and presumably expensive job, that any other work needing doing (eg escape windows, fire door) to bring the basement up to standard as habitable accommodation is also being done. (This may not be needed because of the building's age and existing use, but check. Tanking a storage-only basement is unlikely to be cost-effective; creating additional habitable space is likely to be reflected in the value of the property.)
| It occurs to me now that it is very hard to get good advice, | since it must be in the builder's interest to recommend a big job. | How can one get a true unbiassed opinion in such a case?
Post details here, ignore IMM and then take the mean consensus :-)
What sort of surveyor? Not the mortgage-valuation types presumably? All they ever say is a meally-mouthed "...possible evidence of damp, a specialist should be consulted..." and you're back with those with a vested interest again.
Reminds me of a friend who had a damp-proofing "consultant" round. The guy found a damp patch on the skirting near the kitchen door and after much sucking of teeth and application of damp meters, said it was a nasty case of rising damp, all the plaster on that wall needed hacking off and replacing, etc etc. My mate said "Hmm, just feel the damp patch". Now, sniff your fingers. What do you smell?" "Erm... cat pee?" "Yes, that's next door's cat - the little bastard keeps sneaking in".
Needless to say, the bloke didn't get any work from that visit.
/chartered/, obviously, but you have to instruct them on what you want them to do and if you want a homebuyers survey you ask for one. if you want a test and report on any structural issues then you have to instruct them accordingly, in writing.
they write back with an overview of your instructions, an outline of the contract between you and them and include a form to sign to accept the t's&c's or you write back to them for clarification / amendments etc. this can go on for weeks, if not months.
most surveyors/architects can be had for 30 mins for free and it's surprising how much information one can glean from a day of multiple site visits from multiple surveyors, spaced an hour apart with each one building on the last ones advice ;-)
To be accurate, this is a terrace house, built on quite a steep hill from back to front. The back is at ground level, the front is 1 storey below ground level.
The wall where most work is being done is one of the walls separating the house from a neighbouring (similar) house. The builder has hacked away all the plaster on this wall.
Sorry - think it's the cub scout hair-splitting badge rearing it's ugly head in me again!
I only mentioned it 'cos my father's a FRICS building surveyor of many year's experience & one of his gripes was that people see surveyor=surveyor=surveyor & that ain't always the case. Ironically, he works predominantly in licensed property valuation now!
Most of it (the advice) revolves around asking chartered surveyors for an opinion. In my experience this isn't going to get you very far because RICS chaps have no guidelines on damp from the RICS and you can count those who are interested in it on one hand!
You need one of two things; either a Remedial Treatment Surveyor (CSRT) such as I am, or a consultant in damp problems. If you'd have posted before the work began I could have put you in touch with an excellent chap in Manchester - sorry!
Unfortunately there are only about half a dozen independent CSRT surveyors in the country at the moment. There are in actual fact around one thousand of us in total, but the majority are employed by remedial treatment companies and as such (at least in my opinion) aren't independent.
It seems to me that chartered surveyors, when doing house valuations and House Buyer's Reports etc provide the country with a huge disservice. In the main they know little of the causes and remedies for damp and timber problems. Also, and this is probably the main reason for the disservice, they haven't got time in a survey to go into problems in depth.
Hence, when they obtain a high reading on their moisture meter, they declare that there's a problem. They then usually go on to say something along the lines of 'a specialist's report and estimate for works should be obtained etc...' The client is then led into the open arms of the timber and damp industry.
People telephone me all the time because they think I'm a contractor and they're desperate to get a 'quote' for works as soon as they can - naturally enough because they need to get the mortgage sorted. When I ask them how they're sure they have a damp problem in the first place, they always say 'Oh, I've had a survey done and the surveyor says there's damp'.
The lucky ones who listen to what I have to say book me for a survey and (and I kid you not) in at least 95 percent of the 'problems' I go to look at, there's very little that needs doing other than a minor change of lifestyle (open the windows more often etc). I save my clients thousands and thousands of pounds every year by taking a holistic view of their houses and they way they occupy them and, just as importantly, by not having a vested interested in finding problems.
You'd be surprised (or perhaps not) at the amount of people who would rather have a 'free' survey than pay the hundred or so pounds I charge, even though that 'free' survey is almost certain to come attached to an estimate for works - sometimes in the thousands.
I occasionally get to follow up one of these 'freebies', usually because the client has had two or three of them done and consequently finished up with two or three different remedies to decide upon. The same proportions apply to these inspections too - i.e. very seldom any work required at all!
Even when I do find a problem, I provide a specification which they can then put around to different contractors for the best quote, thus saving them money in the long run.
But people are so convinced that the building society surveyor is right that persuading them otherwise is a work of art. Perhaps they're just too frightened to think logically when they're in this situation
When I bought my Victorian semi some 30 years ago, I was required by the BS to provide a current warranty against possible present or future damp and woodwork problems. A report saying none was needed would not satisfy them. And no company in their right mind would issue such a warranty for free.
So I got IIRC about 6 surveys done. And all offered different 'solutions'. I had already had a good poke round with the assistance of a builder pal, and had found evidence of wet rot in the wood wall plates/ends of joists in some if not all in the cellar, which would require localised repair. I was also happy to have all the wood treated.
The firm I chose eventually created a floating ground floor arrangement where all the existing joists were cut off where they went into the wood plates, and suspended on auxilliary joists supported by brick piers. The wood wall plates were removed, and the cavities bricked up.
But no re-plastering or DPC - which every other firm had recommended, regardless of the fact that all the wallpaper was firmly attached and no signs of damp on the walls. ;-)
I'm certainly Interested - how/where do we find you and your 5 compadres then?!
I agree absolutely; but the trouble is - as Dave P has pointed out - these guys are commissioned by the mortgage providers and come up with 'problems' which the hapless punter is then compelled to sort out by spending cash, as a condition of the mortgage.
So are you aware of clients who have successfully used reports of yours, which refute the building society surveyor, and say that no remedial work is needed?
I may not have entirely got the drift of your post but, if no work was needed, why would this not have been acceptable to them (I understand it was needed of course, but was this non-acceptance a principle with them)? These days I often say no work is needed and the building societies accept this without hesitation. Perhaps there was no-one in a position to do that then?
I'm sometimes not sure whether it's a case of times change or plus ca change! However, your approach seems to be the embodiment of common sense :))
I had one report where it said just that. It wasn't acceptable to the BS - they wanted a guarantee.
Things were certainly different then. You had to save for some time with a society before they'd lend you money. And not all would lend on the type of house I wanted.
In conjunction with my builder pal, I chose the one which I thought gave the best value, and would do the least damage to the parts of the house that showed.;-)
Well, you have my email address and for others you'll have to contact the BWPDA. They have their consultants on their website but not the freelance surveyors (as yet)
In the majority of cases, the BS surveyor isn't trying to find problems but, as far as damp problems are concerned, he's been issued with this soooo sensitive meter which registers too easily and as I said, he has neither the time nor the incliniation to investigate its readings further. When I do a survey it never takes less than an hour even if it's only suspected rising damp. If it's a full T&D survey then you're talking at least two to two and a half hours, probably more, and that's before you sit down to write the report. It's the easiest thing in the world to find an apparent problem and to condemn it as 'rising damp'and get the injection man in, but the idea is to give my clients a service and explain to them what their problems really are. When it comes to insect attack for instance, he (BS Surveyor) hasn't got time to investigate whether it's current or extinct and he has absolutely no incentive to ignore a potential problem, hence he flags it up and on we go. I have no objection to this at all (it gives me work for one thing), what I do have an objection to is the way it's reported in their surveys and the impression it leaves on the punters. As I said, they *always* think that they have a problem which needs intervention. There must be countless thousands of houses out there which have had injection treatments which not only don't work but which are also totally unnecessary. Also, the amount of permethrin sprayed around willy nilly just doesn't bear thinking about!
Yes of course. I did one only last week where the BS Surveyor had actually gone as far as saying the property had rising damp (which he shouldn't have). It didn't in fact. It had gas fires and upvc double glazing which is a classic recipe for condensation and there was also a high flower bed that was contributing with a small amount of penetrating damp. There were no visible signs of any problems with the decor and all skirtings and floor timbers had acceptable moisture contents. I diagnosed condensation and penetrating damp and this was accepted and easily remedied at virtually zero cost. Unfortunately, the surveyor had completely missed the rampant dry rot under the dining room floor which had been caused by a leaking water pipe! This again was treated logically and was remedied by a local builder to my specification (without any form of chemical intervention whatever). Once he'd done the job, I re-inspected and wrote an acceptance letter for the building society - no problem. If the work had been done by the punter, as long as it was satisfactory I would have certified it as such.
You must remember that as a surveyor, not only am I qualified but I have Professional Indemnity Insurance too so the BS's don't have a problem with it. After all, there *are* also instances of remedial treatment companies saying 'no work is required' and the BS accept these. I know they're like hen's teeth but they do exist :)
What is the difference between a CSRT surveyor and a consultant in damp problems?
Whereabouts in the country are you? (Whereas this newsgroup frowns on blatant commercial postings and adverts, I'm sure nobody here would have a problem if you wanted to post your contact details here, especially in response to a request!)
HomeOwnersHub website is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here.
All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.