Book on Spindle Moulders

I want to buy a book on Spindle Moulders.... There appears to be three to choose from... Has any one got any recommendations... ?

Shaper Book - Lonnie Bird

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Moulder Handbook - E Stephenson
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Handbook - Roger W. Cliffe, Michael J. Holtz
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thanks, Roy

Reply to
RzB
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You will probably get a better response for this type of woodwork in...

rec.woodworking or rec.crafts.woodturning

-- Sir Benjamin Middlethwaite

Reply to
The3rd Earl Of Derby

I have the Lonnie Bird and the Cliffe/Holtz books, Roy.

I also tried to get the Stephenson one, but it stayed on order at Amazon for weeks and eventually they said it was out of print. I checked with Stobart Davies, the publisher, and they confirmed. This was 6 months ago, so it may be back.

The other two are both quite reasonable, but if I had to pick one, it would be the Cliffe/Holtz book.

Although both of these are American books, in the case of spindle moulders, much of the information is portable.

There are a few differences on European machines:

- The standard spindle size here is almost always 30mm, whereas in the U.S. there are various inch sizes.

- The guarding arrangements are usually a little different, with the European ones being rather more thoroughly done. Normally there is the rear hood, to which the fences are attached. THere are then normally sprung guards to push the work against the fence and down.

These articles have some quite good illustrations of a spindle moulder incorporated in a combination machine:

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surprisingly, safety should be a big factor in spindle moulder use, and again there do seem to be differences in common practice between the U.S. and Europe.

- The American publications seem to rely solely on sliding the fences along such that only the minimum amount of cutter head is exposed. Cutter blocks are relatively simple in design as well.

- Generally here it seems to be more popular to use ways to expose only the minimum amount of cutter head. A simple way is a piece of ply or equivalent as a sacrificial fence fitted to the metal fence. The machine is then adjusted so that the cutter breaks through that to the required extent for the job. There are more sophisticated fences from companies like Aigner, who make one which has adjustable metal fingers which can be slid into place to the side and above the block. It is also more popular (I think a requirement on some types of cutter head) to have some form of limiter.

This article explains a lot of the safety aspects.

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power feeder is a good idea (although not essential) for spindle moulder use. First of all it improves the safety aspects, and secondly, produces smoother results than can be achieved by hand.

Reply to
Andy Hall

Spindle moulder my favourite tool. Stephenson is useful, I haven't seen the others. May be out of print as not up to date with safety regs. If you are a sensible and cautious person and are not likely to have apprentices or others sharing your machine, I would highly recommend the old "whitehill" type blocks and make your own cutters. Very cheap esp compared to router cutters and possible to replicate perfectly virtually any moulding.

cheers

Jacob

Reply to
owdman

Even if you buy the profile cutters, they are not that expensive.

I've found that I can also sharpen them up quite easily on the Tormek wheel and get good results.

There were a number of companies offering these blocks at the Axminster show this weekend and I was able to look at a few.

Whitehill were there, of course, as was a German manufacturer called Brueck which I'd heard of but hadn't seen before. Quite nice products in steel and aluminium. Catalogue is on line.

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have quite a substantial range in their industrial tools catalogue, and conveniently blocks which will accept 40 or 50mm knives.

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Reply to
Andy Hall

Jacob,

Many thanks for your response. Yes, it's the safety angle that concerns me the most. I am cautious and hopefully sensible. That's why I asking about the books. The more I can read then the less likely I am to do something daft.

Thanks, Roy

Reply to
RzB

Andy, Again - many thanks for your excellent response... I will go for the Cliffe/Holtz book. Is it worth having the Bird book as well or is it going over the same ground?

And thanks for the pointers to the Felder reviews.. I'm soon to decide on Saw/Spindle/Planer/Band Saw/Sanders etc.. and have been looking at the Felder/Hammer machines..

I did speak at length with the guys on the Brueck stand. They were very helpful and answered a lot of questions for me. The chap on the Whitehill stand was less so.. I don't think he saw me as a big customer... ho hum...

Thanks, Roy

Reply to
RzB

Benjamin , Thanks for your response. Yes - I did weigh up where to put this post. rec.woodworking was an obvious contender. However, in this instance I wanted a UK slant on the responses, so decided to try here first. I know that some very knowledgeable woodworkers frequent this group. Many thanks, Roy

Reply to
RzB

Some of it is, although the Bird book does have a chapter on how to make your own knives

Felder have been around for many years and make a range of combination and separate machines starting with the 700 series through the larger

900 series which are more industrial.

In the 700 range, you can have a combination saw/spindle moulder/planer/thicknesser or the saw/spindle moulder as one machine and planer/thicknesser as the other (a combination machine can be split apart as well). They also make separate saw and spindle moulder if you want that.

These are made individually to order in Austria and are very solid machines - the CF731 weighs around a tonne.... There are a large number of options, some of which are selected at manufacturing time while others can be added later - e.g. horizontal morticer etc. The sliding table especially is superb and all adjustments are accurate and repeatable. The combination machine is well thought out such that you can complete many operations without needing to demount tooling and undo setups, although even these can be reinstated quickly. After a short while, I found myself planning things in reasonable order and that is a non-issue now.

I went for the largest motors that could be supplied in a single phase machine (although it has a VFD internally which also has the advantage of speed control).

For the spindle moulder,one can fit a router spindle, which means that router bits can also be fitted and in effect the spindle moulder becomes a router table with the additional feature that the spindle can be tilted.

The Hammer range is relatively new. They've taken most of the design features of the Felder and have done a careful cost reduction exercise. However, this doesn't mean that the machines produce crappy results - it is more that there are fewer options and I believe that they are built to stock. If you compare with the mid range machines like the Sheppach, they are certainly better than that. You might have noticed the Rojek machines at the show. I think that Hammer is a bit better than those, but it's closer. I think that they are very good value for money, and few people would be disappointed. However, if you go and look at and touch the Felder and the Hammer, you will see the differences.

The bandsaws are a different situation. There are a couple of very good band saw manufacturers in Italy (ACM being one) who make them on an OEM basis for several vendors including Felder. If you look on some of the American machine tool web sites, you will find identical looking machines. Each OEM customer has slightly different things. For example, the Felder ones have better guide bearings as well as main bearings and cast iron wheels rather than alloy. I have the smallest of the Felder band saws (it's large enough for my purposes) and it's a very nice and solid machine. There is a Hammer version as well, again cost reduced a bit, but still an outstanding machine and very good value.

I'd suggest going and taking a look at the various machines in their showroom in Milton Keynes (the only reason I can think of for going to Milton Keynes :-) )

Mmm... likewise. They were keen to help.

One wonders why he went..... OK, so not every attendee is going to buy a spindle moulder cutter block, but Trend had sold about 10 of theirs over a couple of days.

Reply to
Andy Hall

Roy,

For a predominantly UK slant on woodworking issues, you may care to join in at

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Reply to
Bob Minchin

Andy,

Re - Book OK - I'm not sure I want to get into making my own knives.... I'll go for the Cliffe/Holtz book.

Re - Felder/Hammer Yes, yes. I have been to Milton Keynes and drooled.... I don't know what I'm going to do yet. The Felder is nice, very nice, but the cost is not :-) I understand what you say about the options... they also come with a significant price tag... At the moment it's a toss up between the Hammer B3 Winner + A3 Planer Thicknesser and the CF731. I would love the CF731 because of the quality, the space issue, and the fact that it can take the router spindle. Obviously the Felder is the better machine, however I'm sure the Hammer stuff will more than manage anything I will want to do. The router spindle does mean I will save the space of a router table as well. But - the cost is much more... I can buy a lot of tooling and wood with the difference!!!

The Hammer combination machine is out because it doesn't have a tilting spindle moulder.

I think the Hammer machines are also made to order. Well, the lead time of

10 weeks suggests so anyway.

Yes - I saw the Rojek stuff. I don't think it's as nice as the Felder/Hammer stuff, and I don't think the spindle tilts. (Not on the combination machine). I have also read a little about the Knapp stuff but have still yet to see any in the flesh... I have seen the MinMax stuff, which is very nice but the spindle tilts forward... (not so nice)...

I might also go for the Hammer/Felder Dust Extractor - but not sure on that. I'm in the middle of doing the calcs right now. However, I'm not sure if I should go for a clean air extractor, or if I can get away with a normal extractor

  • an Air Filtration unit. Do you have any reccomendations?

Re Band Saw - I like the look of the Startrite range, I will post about this and other stuff on a woodworking forum in the next few days to try to find someone who has one of their machines. I want something a little heavier so that I can resaw. Possibly the 440R.

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thanks for your help, Roy

Reply to
RzB

At the cheapo end of the scale is (amongst others) the AEG Maxi 26. I had one for many years and it got a lot of use. It's much better then it looks and good value for money. I now have SCM minimax combi which is excellent in parts but really badly designed in others - particularly poor spindle moulder and badly positioned switches. (its the Axminster 300n version) There are stand alone spindle moulders for sale 2nd hand on ebay etc often cheap and with big kit of blocks and cutters which can be worth more than the machine itself. Power feed is more or less essential for big stuff like skirting boards but is also very handy for small stuff like panel mouldings which can be fiddly to control by hand or with springs. Really useful bit of kit is a wobble saw unit which can replace in one tool dozens of router bits - and do a faster, cleaner, less dusty, quieter, more accurate slot than a router,

Band saw; I've had a Startrite 352 for about 30 years and it is excellent and very reliable.

cheers

Jacob

Reply to
owdman

Bob,

Many thanks for the pointer.

Roy

Reply to
RzB

Jacob, Many thanks for your help. Interesting thoughts on your MinMax...

Good thought re Spindle moulder tooling on Ebay.

I guess the power feed would be a big safety plus.

Yes - I have heard that Startrite have been very good machunes for a long time. However, I believe they went off the scene for a bit, but are now back as part of the Record Power Tools group.. Lets hope the quality continues. The machines do look very nice close up... I'm going to post on a woodworking NG to see if I can find someone who owns one of the new machines...

Re Wobble Saw - you mean like this... ?

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thanks, Roy

Reply to
RzB

Yes thats it. Mine was a lot cheaper from local saw doctor. Not to be confused with the much deprecated practice of wobbling an ordinary circ blade with offset washers. It doesn't actually wobble in any sense and in use is as quiet and solid as any other spindle moulder cutter.

cheers Jacob

Reply to
owdman

Error --- Error....

Opps - I take it back... some of the Rojek combination machines do have a tilting spindle moulder... Not sure which way they tilt..

Roy

Reply to
RzB

Andy,

Just one thing on the router spindle. It runs at 15,000 rpm. That's a little less than the normal router... is that much of a drawback, given that most of the bits used will be of the small diameter variety...

I have a GOF 1300 and that runs up to 24,000 and a Hitachi M12V that has a max of 20,000. Much higher than the 15,000 of the Felder.

Thoughts?

Roy

Reply to
RzB

OK. Then you can also go for the catalogues of several of the tooling manufacturers. There is some interchangeability because there are standard pin spacings for the blocks.

That's entirely possible, and in comparison with almost all of what is on the market, the Hammer products are excellent.

That's true if you are comparing Felder with Hammer. However, if you have decided on Felder, then the router spindle is comparable with the cost of a decent router and basic table.

Yes it does. Perhaps a better way to describe would be to look at the options available.

I am pretty sure that Knapp is in the Felder price bracket, and Minimax similar on some things.

Yes. If you are going to go for machines in this category, then decent extraction is needed. For example, the Felder CF731 has 120mm ports for the planer, 120mm + 50mm for the saw and 120mm plus 80mm for the spindle moulder. This is beyond the capacity of the £200 extractors with 100mm ducting and certainly beyond those with 75mm clear tube.

Felder have the AF22 which is now available in single phase as well as three phase, and the RL125 is well respected.

I went for a 1500W cyclone made by Oneida Air Systems and imported it myself. I installed Nordfab ducting (clips together and cn be altered easily) in 180mm nearest to the extractor and 160mm in most other places.

ONe probably could use a smaller extractor and flexible hoses, but machines in this class do need a decent extraction system.

same manufacturer or if not the other one.

Either way, they will not disappoint

Reply to
Andy Hall

Hopefully not forward.....

Reply to
Andy Hall

Jacob has a good point here - there are a lot of second hand spindle moulders around. However, one does need to shop carefully - there is also a lot of dangerous old stuff about.

If you look through the HSE link that I posted, there have been some changes in legislation that affect use of spindle moulders in the workplace. The main areas are things like the time from pressing the emergency button to the machine being at rest. Modern machines have electronic braking - for example the Felder spindle moulder will halt in about 3-4 seconds. On some older machines, it would not be economically viable to refit them

However, for non-workplace use, there is no reason why not - the HSE has no jurisdiction - but there are non conformant machines around from brokers. As long as you understand the issues and perhaps implement extra safety guards etc. this can be a reasonable solution.

Same issue with tooling. Most modern stuff has limiters etc. to conform with safety legislation. There is older stuff around that has been taken out of industrial use. Again not an issue as long as you understand the implications.

A very good idea.

There are a couple of very good Italian manufacturers - Felder OEMs from Steff Maggi and these are solid machines. They are also heavy.

I looked at a couple of Taiwanese products - unfortunately flimsy in comparison.

long time they didn't offer it because of EU legislation, but the US market demanded it.

As it turns out, the legislation doesn't outlaw dado cutters per sec. but in the typical American configuration of a saw with standard induction motor and a stacked dado cutter like a Freud or Forrest, it is not possible to spin the head down on the required time. Therefore manufacturers implemented short arbors to prevent stacked dado sets from being fitted.

Felder's solution has been to produce two block-type cutters with replacable blades (two ranges of width). These can be shimmed to produce the desired width and fitted to the saw arbor or even the spindle moulder if you like. Both are 30mm bore. The electronic braking allows the tooling - even though it's steel - to be spun down very quickly.

You could fit a wobble blade on the Felder or Hammer spindle moulder, but it would probably need the long arbor to fit the saw.

Reply to
Andy Hall

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