where are the honey bees?

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On 5/7/2014 10:59 AM, trader_4 wrote:

Change is going to be blamed on humanity. A new junk science report has come out blaming people for Climate Change and our Affirmative Action President and moronic minions with the help of a Democrat run Senate are going to use it as an excuse to slap regulations fees and taxes on business and The American people in order to fix Climate Change. It seems CO2 emissions are going to be a big target. CO2 emissions could be drastically reduced if Democrats would just stop breathing. Heck, become martyrs and take one for humanity and Gaia. ^_^
TDD
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On 5/7/2014 7:39 PM, The Daring Dufas wrote:

Haha ur so funny.
There is an interesting phenomenon in Australia; that has suffered horrible droughts going on two decades. The average Australian doesn't believe in man-made global warming, now more than ever. It's speculated that Australians are very independent minded people that can't accept man-made global warming because, they think, "they can't fix it." Apparently, it's a typical reaction for people that are used to fixing things to deny a problem exists if they can't fix it.
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On 5/7/2014 11:28 AM, micky wrote:

Several years ago, Florida started eradicating all honey bee hives on residential property or where they were bothersome because it was safe to assume almost all were Africanized. Hell, if it warms more up here in the midwest, then we can look forward to Africanized bees, fire ants and ? I'm not a doomsdayist, but I certainly have noticed the rarity of honey bees over the last 30 or so years.
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On Wednesday, May 7, 2014 12:23:39 PM UTC-4, NorMinn wrote:

Here in NJ it was very sudden, maybe 5 years ago. Prior to that they were plentiful, then went to zero. The suddeness would strongly suggest to me that it's most likely some pathogen.
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<stuff snipped>

From the USDA's Ag. Research Service:
<<Not all pesticide impact is about directly killing honey bees, however. Sublethal doses of the pesticide imidacloprid-one of the neonicotinoid group of pesticides-were found to make honey bees more susceptible to the gut parasite Nosema, according to a study by Pettis and University of Maryland researchers Dennis vanEngelsdorp, Josephine Johnson, and Galen Dively.
The researchers fed three generations of honey bee colonies either 5 or 20 parts per billion (ppb) of imidacloprid, which is used to protect a wide variety of crops and ornamentals from many different insects. The dosages used in the study were intentionally well below the levels that have been documented to kill honey bees after short-term exposure and reflected levels that have been measured in the environment.
After the third generation, newly emerged adult bees from these colonies were exposed to spores of N. apis and N. ceranae, gut parasites that have been a growing problem for U.S. beekeepers since the 1990s.
There was up to a fourfold increase in the levels of Nosema in honey bees from the imidacloprid-exposed colonies, regardless of whether 5 or 20 ppb were fed.>>
http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/AR/archive/jul12/colony0712.htm
While historical records seem to imply the CCD has occurred in the past, there's no way to determine the actual similarity to today's CCD problems because back then no one had ever even heard of DNA.
It reminds me a little of thalidomide, a drug whose ability to cause birth defects was strongly denied by 1,000's of doctors who had successfully prescribed it to pregnant women without incident. Eventually it turned out that the US, which had not approved the drug, had very few cases but countries that had approved had many.
That eventually led to the discovery that a certain dosage level taken at a critical time (I think 60th day) led to the formation of flippers instead of arms and legs. That's why I think the EU ban will either make or break the connection to neonicotinoids. If they experience far fewer CCD incidents after the ban, then we'll finally have a real smoking gun even if we still don't understand the mechanism.
I was surprised to see a report that implied that CCD might be related to cell and cordless phone use. The media came to that result based on a small German study that implied close-by radio signals can disrupt bee's direction-finding capabilities. Needless to say, it was quickly disproved since CCD occurs in places with virtually no EMI.
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On Wednesday, May 7, 2014 12:49:59 PM UTC-4, Robert Green wrote:

And I think you'll similarly find that CCD occurs in remote places with virtually no pesticides and for sure no imidacloprid.
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clipped

In a place with no agriculture and no pesticide/herbicide use, there prolly isn't anyone there paying attention to honey bees ;o)
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You think? Wow, conclusive evidence!
One beekeeper in AZ does professional killer bee removal. He then relocates the bees to the desert and sets up hives where the bees can pollinate natural desert plants. Results: a plentitude of organic honey and no CCD.
nb
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On Wednesday, May 7, 2014 3:17:37 PM UTC-4, notbob wrote:

I'd be happy to see the full story on this, but I suspect that won't be forthcoming. Is relocation of killer bees even legal within the USA? And assuming the anecdotal report is true, it's still meaningless, unless you believe in junk science.
I could claim that measles is caused by watchng TV. So, I take 1000 people and put them on an isolated island, with no contact with other people. They don't get measles, so following your logic, TV is the cause of measles. Oh and for good measure, throw in the fact that killer bees are naturally resistant to CCD disorder to begin with. It's one of the things real scientists working on the problem have established.
Pesticides remain on the list of possible causes, along with just about everything else. The fact that CCD appeared so suddenly and so aggressively, suggests to me that it's more likely a bacteria or virus that has yet to be indentified. CCD like die-offs have occured periodically for over 100 years. This could be from the same cause, or a different cause.
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T4> > And I think you'll similarly find that CCD occurs in remote places

There are a lot of bee die-offs that aren't CCD but are mistaken for CCD. I'm no bee expert but I feel confident that the experts *are* on the case. I also believe that banning the substances in the EU will be an important step in proving or disproving neonic's role in what may be a problem of multiple causations.
Their experts apparently feel at least a temporary ban is warranted because of the potential threat to agriculture if "bee trucking" becomes unviable. Reading through the USDA's various monographs on CCD makes it clear how many threats bees face. Sort of like the first time I grew my own tomatoes and discovered the legion of living creatures from fungus to four footed furballs that wanted (and got!) a piece of my tomato patch. Who knew there were so many blights, rots, bugs and furballs with a taste for tomatoes?
Norminn> In a place with no agriculture and no pesticide/herbicide use, there

Then there's that! Frankly I wonder where the missing bees go? Are they carrying a disease that they spread to other hives? The very act of moving vast numbers of one stationary bees to all points on the compass makes me suspect that transportation is part of the problem. Those traveling bees have to ride in the backwash of diesel truck exhausts. I don't like following a big rig, I am sure those tiny little bees don't like it much either.
We have another hard puzzle, like the Malaysian airliner, that may never get solved. From what I've read, the problem with CCD *isn't* getting worse. Perhaps the bee genome contains some mechanism for killing off large numbers of bees every 40 or 50 years. We already know from cicadas that insects can "tell time" for at least 17 years in a row. Why not 40?
One thing for sure, it's a very knotty problem that's proven very hard to get a handle on. It could easily be just a coincidence it appeared at the same time neonic's became the pesticide of choice. Or not.
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wrote:

It's clear a lot more research needs to be done. I think part of the problem is that early research was done by the company making the new pesticides. Like new drugs for humans, the company testing is often at variance with the real world results. Thalidomide passed drug safety testing in Canada and Germany and look what happened there.
We're seeing a lot more research being done by independent agencies now and that might change what we know about the problem. A lot of universities have started research programs. I feel pretty confident that we'll get to the bottom of CCD and I wouldn't be at all surprised if environmental contaminants of some kind are at least part of the problems because of reports like yours.
Even a minor brain dysfunction in a bee can mean it can't find its way home and without little bee PET scanners or EEG machines, it's going to be very hard to pick up something that might be disrupted a bee's brain just enough to cause it to wander away.
I am surprised no one's yet accused Obama of running a plot to replace our natural, placid honeybees with Islamic-leaning community-organized Africanized killer Benghazi bees. <sarcasm alert>
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On Wednesday, May 7, 2014 5:27:36 PM UTC-4, Robert Green wrote:

Actually, I think you've found the problem. The bees have seen all those ads encouraging folks to get on food stamps. They've seen Obama and the libs rail against the rich and how unfair America is and how we need to redistribute wealth. They heard him say, "You didn't create that". They've seen the labor participation rate hit 30 year lows, where people just give up looking for work. They saw tax increases on those that are the most productive. So, like so many others, they just said to hell with it, we'll just stop working and live off the rest of the hive. Enough do that and the hive collapses. Mystery solved.
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On Wed, 7 May 2014 12:49:59 -0400, "Robert Green"

IIRC, even for the small number of cases in the US, it was oten the case that they had gotten thalidomide when they were in the UK or elsewhere.
I've seen one or two adults in the US in the last 20 years who seem clearly to have been thalidiomide babies.

Hmm. My girlfriend says her direction-finding capabilites were destroyed when cell phones got popular.
<g>
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news:8d9bc710-e8e5-4386-9c24-> On Wednesday, May 7, 2014 5:27:36 PM UTC-4, Robert Green wrote:
<stuff snipped>

Pretty clever, Trader. I wish I had time to respond in detail today - but I will, sooner or later. I have a slightly different take on the poor schmoes we call "worker bees" and what happens to them and the honey (wealth) they create for their landlords and masters, the beekeepers . . . (-: They get to keep *just* enough honey to survive, and even then many don't live to reap the fruit of their labor.
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Yes, there were plenty of incidents like that which really complicated finding the source of the problem. Doctors always seem surprised, too, when they find out that people trade or acquire pills contrary to Federal law, doctors order's and the Rule Of Law. (-:

There is a Canadian film my wife and I watched a while back about the thalidomide kids growing up that would make even a grizzled Navy Seal cry. Kids reaching for and trying to play with toys that a normal child could reach for a grab easily. Even the youngest of them knew that something was terrible wrong. It's one of the saddest films I've ever seen and the wife went through a substantial number of tissues she wept so much (and she's a retired Army colonel who grew up in New England and who prides herself on her ability to remain stoic and unemotional when required).
I think the film really bothers women because they are so worried about delivering healthy babies. My mom (and others) have said that as soon as the nurse handed me to her she counted all my fingers and toes and checked my ding-a-ling to make sure nothing was missing.
Whenever someone rails against our "horrible" regulatory system I think of the thousands of kids that got to lead normal lives because our FDA refused to be pushed into approving Benedictin (IIRC that was the trade name) before all the tests were in. What really sticks with me was how strongly doctors who had successfully prescribed thalidomide without incident believed that the drug was harmless.

Does she have a wasp waist, wings, a black and yellow behind and a taste for honey? (0:
There is some truth to our electronics interfering with the direction finding abilities of animals. It is well-known that high-powered sonar arrays really disrupt marine mammal communication and navigation abilities. I'll bet there's more than one whale who could lead us right to the Malaysian Flight 370 wreckage but they won't because they're pissed off about sonar noise pollution. <humor alert>
(FWIW, I read that it's not so much the sonar that's disrupted but the high explosives they use in those sea trials to make sure that sonar works under true battle conditions.)
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On Thu, 8 May 2014 19:39:07 -0400, "Robert Green"

There are a lot of painful things I won't watch anymore. I've learned more than enough about the suffering in the world and I won't forget. But I don't have to watch more, either.

This probably goes back thousands of years.

OTOH, this one, these days, for last 60 or more, is not such a serious problem. The most common problem is undescended testicles, and I thought http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Undescended_testicles would say they can almost always be fixed, but there were a lot of words and I got confused.
It did say this much. .
" About 3% of full-term and 30% of premature infant boys are born with at least one undescended testis. However, about 80% of cryptorchid testes descend by the first year of life (the majority within three months), making the true incidence of cryptorchidism around 1% overall."
Since this was probably always the case, I guess a lot of parents were scared unnecessarily.
They start out just below the kidneys and end up lower.

Doesn't the current budget cut funds for the FDA? Also the IRS, even though the IRS brings in money.

I wish.

Fortunately, she doesn't have those things either.

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news:8d9bc710-e8e5-4386-9c24-
<stuff snipped>

How are you defining productive?
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On 5/9/2014 6:38 AM, Robert Green wrote:

before Bobby G comments on the semen stains on the blue dress.
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Christopher A. Young
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<Failed attempt at humor disguised as partisan rant snipped - or was it a failed partisan rant disguised as humor? Always hard to tell>

As unreasonable as that sounds, it's still better than the US nutjobs who postulate (as always) some massive world-wide conspiracy is to blame for all this warming "hokum." To buy into this lunacy you have to believe that all of the world's climate scientists are out to "cook the books" just to please the people that fund their research. What they fail to realize is that many more institutions than just governments hire and use climate experts to plan their business activities. Are *all* of them on the take? Not bloody likely but I hear people spout such nonsensical conspiracy crap all the time.
Those conspiracy theorists would be closer to the mark to suspect the research done by oil companies that show "no global warming" crisis because such a crisis would be very, VERY bad for business. Fossil fuel companies know that if we need to clean up CO2 that they will recede and solar, nuke and wind will advance. That gives plenty of motive for legacy energy led researchers to "cook the books." Protecting profits.
I am convinced global warming is real because the world's largest insurers are convinced it's real and they're the ones on the hook to pay off any huge weather disaster claims. IOW, they have some pretty big dogs in this hunt:
<<Even insurance companies are noticing. Dr. Peter Hoeppe runs the Geo Risks division of German reinsurer Munich Re. They have observed significant trends in the number of weather related disasters in the last 30 years. "It has to be explained by changes in the atmospheric conditions," Hoeppe said>>
http://www.businessinsider.com/chasing-ice-climate-change-is-real-2013-7?op=1
I read the other day that ALEC and the Koch brothers are further trying to protect their fossil fuel interests by funding legislation in each state to make connecting solar to the grid more costly for solar pioneers. So the people who are all for smaller government and less regulation are happy to see any threat to their business model beseiged with new taxes and regulations. It saddens me to see otherwise intelligent individuals fail to realize that corporations have bribed their way out of paying taxes in the 25 years to an astonishing extent. Guess who's left holding the bag, Joe Taxpayer?
<<Oklahoma residents who produce their own energy through solar panels or small wind turbines on their property will now be charged an additional fee, the result of a new bill passed by the state legislature and expected to be signed into law by Gov. Mary Fallin (R).>>
Oklahoma and the Republicans, trying to take the world back 100 years in so many areas. <sigh> The "champion state" of less regulation and lower taxes passing both to please their wealthy masters, who genuinely fear the free market. Yet people believe the press releases and the propaganda. Watch what people do. It oftens says far more about their motives than their words.
<<On Monday, S.B. 1456 passed the state House 83-5 after no debate.>>
If these are such good laws that the people will naturally support, how come they so often seem to ram them through without debate? Could it be because they don't want democracy - they want to dictate policy and discussion might interfere with that goal?
<< The measure creates a new class of customers: those who install distributed power generation systems like solar panels or small wind turbines on their property and sell the excess energy back to the grid. While those with systems already installed won't be affected, the new class of customers will now be charged a monthly fee - a shift that happened quickly and caught many in the state off guard.>>
Just another example of ALEC and other right-wingers trying to sneak their agenda through state-by-state hoping no one would be watching. Guess they stepped on their wieners this time. People *are* watching and more importantly in many states it turns out to be members of the Tea Party and Libertarians who are crying "Foul!"
<<"It is unfortunate that some utilities that enthusiastically support wind power for their own use are promoting a regressive policy that will make it harder for their customers to use wind power on their own," said Mike Bergey, president & CEO of Bergey Windpower in Norman, Oklahoma, in a statement. "Oklahoma offers tax credits for large wind turbines which are built elsewhere, but wants to penalize small wind which we manufacture here in the state? That makes no sense to me.">>
It makes perfect sense if you realize ALEC is a shill for both the fossil fuel industry and people like the Koch brothers who don't want to see competition from anyone that threatens their existing oil and coal based energy businesses. Or *any* of their businesses.
<<"We're not anti-solar or anti-wind or trying to slow this down, we're just trying to keep it fair," Oklahoma Gas and Electric Co. spokeswoman Kathleen O'Shea told the Oklahoman. "We've been studying this trend. We know it's coming, and we want to get ahead of it.">>
In other words, "we don't want any newcomers threatening our wonderfully lucrative near-monopoly on energy generation so we're determined to lock this threat to our wallets down as fast as we can." What's needed are studies that show whether net metering actually *does* cost more. Plenty of times when asked to show the numbers, people back down on their cost assertions. Verizon did on Fire Island after Sandy.
<<But distributed energy sources also provide a clear value to utility companies. Solar generates during peak hours, when a utility has to provide electricity to more people than at other times during the day and energy costs are at their highest. Solar panels actually feed excess energy back to the grid, helping to alleviate the pressure during peak demand. In addition, because less electricity is being transmitted to customers through transmission lines, it saves utilities on the wear and tear to the lines and cost of replacing them with new ones.>>
What matters most is pleasing their fossil-brained fossil-fuel loving masters, not helping the country to be more energy independent and less polluting. Poker players would call these new fees and regulations a very clear "tell" - a way to gauge what a player is REALLY thinking.
<<As the use of solar power skyrockets across the U.S., fights have sprung up in several states over how much customers should be compensated for excess power produced by their solar panels and sold back to the grid - a policy known as net metering. Net metering laws have come under fire from the secretive American Legislative Exchange Council (ALEC), a group backed by fossil fuel corporations, utility companies, and the ultra-conservative Koch brothers. Forty-three states and the District of Columbia currently have net metering policies in place and ALEC has set its sights on repealing them, referring to homeowners with their own solar panels as "freeriders on the system." ALEC presented Gov. Fallin the Thomas Jefferson Freedom award last year for her "record of advancing the fundamental Jeffersonian principles of free markets, limited government, federalism and individual liberty as a nationally recognized leader.">>
Where's the award for keeping the profits of fossil-fuel businesses stratospherically high and trying to choke off any new competition? Free markets my ass. Protecting profits is their real goal. The sad part is that dim-witted partisans swallow this "free market, limited government" BS hook, line and sinker. Even when a blind man could see with a cane that folks like the Kochs are very happy to use big government to try to kill off their competition as they did in Oklahoma, apparently land of the dimwits ALEC stooges.
<<Oklahoma "could be the first complete defeat for solar advocates in their fight against utility efforts to recover costs lost to DG [distributed generation] use," writes Utility Dive. Net metering survived attacks in Colorado and Kansas and Vermont recently increased its policy in a bipartisan effort. Last year, Arizona added what amounts to a $5 per month surcharge for solar customers, a move that was widely seen as a compromise, particularly after ALEC and other Koch-backed groups got involved.>>
http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2014/04/16/3427392/oklahoma-fee-solar-wind/
What I found most interesting is that the libertarian wing of the Tea Party is pushing back hard against ALEC and the surcharge laws that ALEC is trying to push. That's because many libertarian-leaning Tea Partiers want to be able to "disconnect" from the grid and believe the surcharges are just more government overreach. They're right on the money proving at least some Tea Partiers know when they're being lied to.
<<The battle lines over this transformation are forming. In Georgia a Southern Co. subsidiary has blocked solar power development. That caused the local Tea Party, led by activist Debbie Dooley, to form what she called the "Green Tea Coalition" with local environmentalists from the Natural Resources Defense Council, Sierra Club and other groups to push for more solar in the state, rather than costly projects such as the new nuclear reactors being built at the Vogtle power plant-the first new nuclear to be approved in the U.S. since 1978-and financed through fees collected before any electricity is produced from new fission.>>
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/fight-over-rooftop-solar-forecasts-a-bright-future-for-cleaner-energy/
I think the solar's future just got a lot brighter because it's clear that solar has become enough of a threat to Big Oil and Gas that they are trying to muscle it out by "buying" legislation to try to squash it. More importantly, ALEC and the Kochs have shown their "Freemarkets and less government" mantra is a steaming crock of crap. They're more than happy to use Big Government to beat up on their rivals and their determination to crush their competition shows that a "free market" is actually the farthest thing from their minds. They want to eliminate competition and apparently will stop at nothing to do so.
<<Barry Goldwater, Jr., son of the famed conservative presidential candidate and a former congressman in his own right, heads the Tell Utilities Solar won't be Killed, or TUSK, coalition in Arizona. "Rather than innovate or find ways to profit from solar power, APS decries the solar industry and opines that its revenue is heading downward. That's not the ratepayers problem," he wrote in a June op-ed. "Instead of trying to fix the problem, APS is trying to fix the game. It's looking to rig the system so the utility doesn't have to pay fair market value for the excess electricity that rooftop solar customers send back to the grid.>>
http://www.trbimg.com/img-5363d970/turbine/la-na-tt-koch-brothers-new-foe-20140502-001/600
What worries me is the vast number of low intelligence voters who have been thoroughly duped by ALEC and the Kochs into thinking that they're trying to preserve the American way of life. It's clear they're mostly trying to preserve the huge amounts of money they make pushing fossil fuels and trying to destroy anything (like solar) that threatens that money train.
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On Friday, May 9, 2014 7:33:39 AM UTC-4, Robert Green wrote:

You don't need a mass conspiracy. You just need enough people, including scientists to come to the wrong conclusion, add in a lot of politicians, then it becomes self reinforcing. Are you trying to tell us that as much money is being spent looking at the possibility that global warming is being caused by things other than man-made CO2? If you're a scientist and you take that position, you're going to find it nearly impossible to attract funding and even if you can, your university career is likely over and you may get the boot.
For evidence of a similar phenomenon all you need look at is the 70's, when a similar overwhelming scientific agreement was concerned about the earth cooling, possibly entering a new ice age. Time magazine ran a cover in 1974 about the coming new ice age. You could say, "Oh, but we have better models, better data, etc today." The same things were said in the 70's.
And note the shift now from "global warming", to "global climate change". How convenient. For the last decade, the global temperature has flattened out and is no longer rising, but curiously, if the scientists are so fair and balanced they don't want to talk about that. So, now we have the segue to "global climate change", where instead of focusing on what the whole basis was, instead, anytime there is a hurricane, tornado, or drought somewhere, it's implied it's due to CO2.

Sure, and there aren't similarly a whole boat load of industries and interests that benefit from raising the alarm on global warming? How much money did just Solyndra get and what did it produce? How much money has Al Gore made off of GW? There are huge, powerful and politically connected forces benefitting from global warming.
Fossil fuel companies

And it gives exactly the same motive to "cook the books" to those claiming global warming requires drastic govt action.

He's obviously an idiot. Any climate scientists will tell you that there are cycles in climatic activity longer than 30 years. We had the dust bowl of the 30's for example, and nothing like it until now, 80 years later. Similarly, we had devastating hurricanes in the 30's, and 40's, up the Atlantic coast an then a long period of reduced activity.

Actually the beef they have is quite fair. The prices traditional users pay for energy, be it from coal, nuke, gas or hydro pays not only for the energy, but also for the infrastructure. I get an electric bill of $150, it's about half for distribution, half for the energy. If I put up solar panels, now my bill winds up at zero or close to zero. Yet, I'm still connected to the grid and still using it for energy at night. Why should I get a free ride on the cost of the grid, while the other poor saps get charged for it?
It saddens me to see otherwise intelligent individuals fail to

Sure, try reading an annual report for Intel, Boeing, Exxon, etc and you'll see that the typical company is paying a lot in taxes. And sure, there are a few that avoid paying a good portion of their taxes, but a lot of that is due to some extraordinary event for a year and not continual. One of the companies most frequently pointed to as doing everything it can to avoid paying taxes is GE. Obama made Immelt his job czar, so I guess we know where Obama stands.
The game the libs like to play is to have one of the highest corp tax rates in the world. Then you have all kinds of exemptions, loopholes, etc that reduce the effective rate. Republicans have argued for decades for a lowered corp rate together with getting rid of most of the loopholes, ie making it a simpler, fairer tax system. The Democrats don't want it. Have you heard Obama advocate for that? Hell no, all the libs want to do is keep the 35% rate and close the loopholes. That's why you have $2tril sitting offshore, while black unemmployment is in the double digits and GDP grew by .1% last quarter. Note the decimal point. Great recovery, but heh, Obama has only had 5 years....

BS. It's an attempt at a level playing field. If you use the grid, why should you not pay for it? If you don't want to pay for the grid like I do, then go off it altogether.
Guess they

I already showed you what the real issue is. It's not the cost of net-metering. It's that those with solar or wind power wind up still using the grid to receive power when they need it and aren't paying to support the grid.
And who do you think ultimately pays for the grid anyway? Hint, it's not the Koch brothers, it's consumers of electricity, like me.
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