Too many Wires! Help with new wall outlet

I seriously doubt it.

This may be a junction point for an "Edison Circuit" in which case he's partly right, but you would want to use only red, white, and bare or black, white and bare depending. If it is in fact an Edison circuit then the potential between the black and red will be 240VAC (used to be nominally 230V, then before that 220V)

It may also be, if this is in a room with receptacles controlled by a light switch, that one of the colored (that is, not white or bare/green) wires is switched by a light switch. If that is the case you can choose to use that for half the recep and the other half for unswitched just in case you want to have a lamp plugged into this recep that is controlled by a switch.

Keep in mind that you're probably exceeding the allowable box fill by current code to add a recep to this box unless this is a 1900 box (4" square) with a plaster ring or a deep switch box will be OK according to this link

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but a standard switch box will not.

In any case I think you need to do some investigating with a meter, or if you're not comfortable with same, find someone who is.

good luck,

nate

Reply to
Nate Nagel
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First of all, you need to understand the difference between "current" and "voltage" - when you are referring to 120 or 240 that is "voltage."

Think of it like the wires are a garden hose with water flowing in it - voltage is analogous to pressure, while current is analogous to flow rate. You'll also hear people referring to power and/or watts (the unit of power) which is in DC-land volts (voltage) multiplied by amps (current.) It's a little more complicated in AC-land, but close enough for handwaving purposes. (I'm not trying to be a jerk, but proper terminology results in less confusion.)

So, in any case, what I would do is carefully probe all the connections, being careful not to ground anything and/or physically touch any of the bare wires, especially the black and red.

What is the voltage between black and ground? Red and ground? White and ground? Does flipping the nearby light switch make any difference?

Let us know what you find out...

good luck

nate

Reply to
Nate Nagel

Correct, they shouldn't be at all as it sounds like OP has two 14/3 (or other/3) cables in this box with only two white (neutral) wires - only LEGAL explanations for that is that it is a splice in an Edison circuit, a splice in a circuit feeding duplex receps with one half switched (or other mixed switched lighting/unswitched receps circuit) or a splice for a traveler of a 3- or 4-way light switch (in which case, depending on where it is and how it's configured, the white may not be a neutral at all)

I can't think of any other explanations for what the OP is seeing, so if it's wrong, might as well figure it out now and fix it...

nate

Reply to
Nate Nagel

I'd also say a switch leg for a ceiling fan/light combo where the electrician was thoughtful and decided to allow you to have the option of having a wall switch for the fan when he roughed in.

Or, now that we have the new code, could be a switch leg for anything - as you're now required to have a neutral even at those locations. but neither one of those situations are what the OP is seeing.

nate

Reply to
Nate Nagel

wall outlet.

two red wires and two black wires (all solid copper 12-gauge). The two black wires were fastened to each other with a "rubberized cap" of some sort. The two white wires were fastened to each other the same way and the red wires were fastened to each other the same way.

220-circuit and all I need to do was to unfasten all the wires, wire nut off one of each color and then take the remaining three wires (red, white and black) and fasten them as normal to my duplex outlet and reinstall into the wall.

One other clue would be what height is the box. If it's receptacle height, the chance the wires are travelers is low. If the box is at switch height, the chance the wires are travelers is high.

Reply to
Metspitzer

BTW - it's Voltage.... Current is when the device is pulling amps from the supply service.

You really should grab a very basic Home Wiring book or pamphlet from Home Depot, etc.. so you understand the potential scenarios of the wires in the box...

Also - it is "possible" that the wiring is non-standard, and someone just used whatever they had laying around... SO - be careful at how you intrepret what you are dealing with...

Green or bare - White - Black - Red -

Reply to
ps56k

Like I said - you might consider a simple Home Wiring pamphlet from say... Home Depot, etc -

If you don't understand the simple "terminology", then it's kind of hard to keep you from getting yourself electrocuted by following the "correct" answers from your FIL -

...

Reply to
ps56k

BTW - where is the blank box located in the house ? upstairs, downstairs, basement, garage, outside, attic ? what else is around it that "may" have once required an outlet ?

Also - in any of your "testing" with a simple voltmeter ... once the wire connections are "bare", be VERY careful not to let them move & touch the metal box, as this will create a SHORT CIRCUIT - along with popping the breaker/fuse - and creating a HUGE spark right in front of your face.

Reply to
ps56k

and all I need to do was to unfasten all the wires, wire nut off one of each color and then take the remaining three wires (red, white and black) and fasten them as normal to my duplex outlet and reinstall into the wall.

-------

Claims to know a lot - yeah, right..

220 ?? what makes him think that ?

And what is a "normal" wiring for red/white/black, and a duplex outlet than only has 2 screws (silver/gold) and a ground ?

Reply to
ps56k

When I was 9 or 10, we had trouble with one outlet or light. My father had died and my mother called an electrician. He unscrewed all the fuses and then screwed them in one at a time until the problem showed up again***. I was sort of humiliated that I hadn't thought of that. (My mother hadn't even asked me to fix it, but I thought I should.)

***This works best in the daytime.
Reply to
Stormin Mormon

For under $ 40 at Lowes you can get a tester for this. You plug one in the socket you want to find, the other device is held in your hand and move it up and down the breaker box. It will light up and beep at the breaker that goes to the circuit. All this is done with the breaker on.

Reply to
Ralph Mowery

OP here again....

Things are starting to make sense a little.

The box in question is the standard duplex outlet box -- about one foot off the ground and about 2"x4" made from that hard thick brown plastic that se ems to be the standard for all the boxes in this house and looks to be nail ed to a stud.

It is a couple of feet off from a corner, it has a mate, along the same wal l, also a couple of feet off from the corner.

It's a den, and the location of the box seems to be the prime spot someone would want an outlet to be if they wanted to plug in a lamp. As I said, it 's mate down the wall is controlled by a wall switch that is directly acros s the room. No ceiling fixtures.

Reply to
timbirr

ff the ground and about 2"x4" made from that hard thick brown plastic that seems to be the standard for all the boxes in this house and looks to be na iled to a stud.

all, also a couple of feet off from the corner.

e would want an outlet to be if they wanted to plug in a lamp. As I said, it's mate down the wall is controlled by a wall switch that is directly acr oss the room. No ceiling fixtures.

OP again, with a PS. I do have an $80 Klein multimeter. I do work on some electrical "stuff." Have replaced clothes dryer elements, motors in washing machines, light switches, etc. Been shocked more times than I care to adm it.

Oh, and the house has a split buss panel. Loads of fun to work with...

Reply to
timbirr

ground and about 2"x4" made from that hard thick brown plastic that seems to be the standard for all the boxes in this house and looks to be nailed to a stud.

also a couple of feet off from the corner.

would want an outlet to be if they wanted to plug in a lamp. As I said, it's mate down the wall is controlled by a wall switch that is directly across the room. No ceiling fixtures.

There is a pretty good chance you can add an outlet without any problems. Just take your tester and test the wires. Put your tester on a voltage scale at the highest setting (AC volts). Touch one lead of the tester to the bare ground wire. Use the other lead to test the white first. It should be 0v.

Then test say the black (once with the switch on and once with the switch off). Touch one lead to the bare ground wire and the other lead to the black. It should read 120v. Test it again with the switch off. It will either read 0v or 120v.

Do the same test with the red wire. Just note if it is the black wire that changes with the switch off or the red.

You shouldn't have to break the splices to make this test.

Reply to
Metspitzer

OK then here is what I would do. go ahead and get yourself a cheap meter like we all suggested if you don't have one already, test the voltages. I then expect to see the following:

Black to ground - 120V or thereabouts all the time. Red to ground - 120V or thereabouts only when the light switch is on. (red and black may be reversed, if that is the case just make a note of it.) White to ground - 0V all the time.

If that is the case then your assumption is correct and you can install a receptacle assuming that the box is deep enough. Everything below is ASSuming that you've found what you expect to find and that the box is large enough to handle the device (3-1/2" deep or thereabouts.)

I personally would get a receptacle with provisions for "back wiring" (NOT back stab - don't ever use those!) so you can get rid of the wire nuts. This will likely be a "spec grade" receptacle which is not a bad thing - they cost a little more but are higher quality. Personally I don't use anything else on work that I am doing myself. contractors will use less expensive materials because they're legal and they're trying to keep costs down. But I digress...

when you have your shiny new recep in your hand, you will see two brass screws on the right side as you are looking at the face of it with ground down, and two nickel plated screws on the left side. Somewhere will be a green ground screw as well, which you will need to use since you have plastic boxes.

What you're going to want to do now is decide if you want to split the recep or not. What I mean by that is whether you want one of the receps of the duplex to be switched for a lamp or if you want them both to be hot all the time.

If you want to split it - turn off the breaker controlling the circuit, then separate all the wire splices save for the ground. You will probably find it easier to just cut the wires off and restrip because you want nice straight wire ends. Take the recep in your hand, look at the "hot" (brass screw) side and you should see a little tab connecting the two plates behind the screws. Break that off, but leave the one on the neutral (nickel screw) side alone. There should be two holes behind each screw where you can shove wires in and then tighten down the clamps with the screw; put the wires that are switched by the light switch (I'm assuming red) under the upper brass screw and the wires that are always hot (I'm assuming black) under the lower brass screw. Put both white wires under one of the nickel plated screws, doesn't matter which one. Tighten all the screws down. Now take a short scrap of bare copper wire and add it to the splice of the two ground wires - you may need a larger wire nut, I think yellow will work for #14 but you might need a red one for #12 - and loop the other end and connect it to the green ground screw on the recep. Now you're ready to put it back in, attach the cover plate, then check your work.

If you don't want to split it, follow the directions above except do not break the tab, and don't connect the switched wires to the recep at all, just leave them spliced together as they are.

Let us know what you find!

nate

Reply to
Nate Nagel

Forgot to add, test black to red as well, should be 0V (assuming you've found everything is as above) with the light switch on. If not, then there's a problem. (shouldn't have to do this, but testing everything is a good practice.)

nate

Reply to
Nate Nagel

snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com:

Nonsense. Unless you consider an Edison circuit to be a 220 circuit.

Reply to
Doug Miller

A split circuit IS an "edison circuit" so no, Doug it is NOT nonsense.

Reply to
clare

What about an Edison circuit?

Reply to
DerbyDad03

Blurb continued...

As stated before, the technically incorrect but easiest way to think about house wiring is that the power comes from the generating station on the red and black wires and goes back to the generating station on the white wire. You can use that same analogy when it comes to the individual circuits in your house as well. The power comes from the electrical panel on the black or red wires and goes back to the panel on the white wire. Again, it doesn't, but that way of thinking about it will at least help you better understand the reasons behind doing certain things certain ways.

For example, there is a standard wiring convention when wiring 110 volt electrical outlets. You will notice that the screw connections on one side of the duplex receptacle will be chrome plated, whereas those on the other side will be bare brass. The 120 volt wiring convention is to always connect the light coloured wire to the light coloured screw, and the dark coloured wire to the dark coloured screw. So, if you are mounting a duplex receptacle in an electrical box, you would connect the black or red pigtail to either of the bare brass screws on one side of the duplex receptacle and the white pigtail to either of the chrome plated screws on the other side of the duplex receptacle. The same convention holds true for wiring the male and female ends of extension cords; the dark coloured insulation always goes to the dark screw and the light coloured insulation always goes to the light coloured screw. You'll notice that on switches, both screws will be identical because the switch should always be on the black or red supply side of the circuit, not the white return side of the circuit.

The reason for this convention is safety. If homeowners, electricians and appliance manufacturers all follow this wiring convention, that will ensure that the on/off switch for 110 VAC appliances will always be on the power supply wire (that is, the red or black wire). And, this is important from a safety perspective because it ensures that the on/off switch will shut off power from coming into the appliance. In the time before electrical plugs and receptacles were "polarized", both prongs on a cord plug and both slots of an electrical receptacle were the same size. So, you could plug a 110 VAC appliance into a receptacle with the plug either right side up or upside down. The appliance would work equally well either way. However, in one of these positions the on/off switch to the appliance would be on the power supply wire and would shut off the power going into the appliance. In the other position, the on/off switch would be on the white neutral wire and would shut off the power getting out of the appliance. So, if there were a short circuit in the appliance, having the switch on the power supply wire would ensure that there would be no power in the appliance when the appliances on/off switch was in the off position. But, if the plug was upside down, then the on/off switch would be on the white wire, then there would ALWAYS be power in the appliance as long as it was plugged in. So, you could still get a shock from the appliance even if it was turned off. That's cuz the switch is now only preventing power from leaving the appliance via the white wire. The power can still come into the appliance via the black or red power supply wire and leave the appliance via some other route, like through YOUR BODY!!! Thus, if you happened to be touching a faucet while you were touching a toaster with a short circuit in it, you could end up getting 110 volts at 15 amps across your heart even if the toaster was turned off at the time, and that could potentially kill you. Thus, by sticking to this dark wire to dark screw wiring convention, we always end up with the appliance on/off switch on the power supply line, and that ensures that appliances can't give you a shock if they're turned off.

There is also a standard wiring convention used when wiring the plugs, receptacles and terminal blocks of 220 volt appliances, all of which will have provision for connecting THREE wires as well as a ground wire. Normally the ground wire terminal will be easy to identify because it will be grounded to the electrical box by an electrical conductor, and the remaining three connection points for the red, white and black wires will be arranged in a row. The wiring convention for

220 volt appliances is that the white neutral wire is ALWAYS connected to the middle terminal in that row of three connection sites, and the red and black wires are connected on either side of it. It doesn't matter which side you connect the red or the black wires to, as long as the white is in the middle and the red and black are on the outside, you're good to go. If your stove or dryer doesn't come with a cord and you want to connect one to the terminal block of the appliance, the same rule applies, namely "white in the middle, black and red on the outside". If you're wanting to wire a receptacle for a stove or electric dryer, then again, the same rule applies. First identify the ground wire terminal, and the remaining three connection points will be for the red, white and black wires and they should be arranged in a recognizable "row". Always connect the white in the middle of those three sites and the red and black on either side of the white.

Every dryer cord will have 4 prongs sticking out of it. The straight ones are for the red and black wires, the "L" shaped one is for the white wire and the round one is for the ground wire. Range cords also have 4 prongs, but they will use 3 straight prongs for the red, black and white wires and a round one for the ground wire. Configuring the plug and receptacle differently (with an "L" shaped prong instead of a straight one) is done so you can't stick a 30 amp dryer plug into a 50 amp range receptacle or vice versa.

The heating elements in both electric dryers and stoves require 220 volt power, but you still need to run the white wire to the stove or dryer. The reason why is that there will be circuits within the stove or dryer that require only 110 volt power. For example, the electric motor that turns the dryer drum or the light bulb inside an oven will both require 110 volt AC power, not 220 volt power. So, in an electric stove the heating elements will be connected between the red and black wires because they need 220 volts, but the electrical outlets provided for convenience on the stove console will be connected between the white wire and either the red or black power wires, because the convenience outlet is intended to provide only 110 volts to power 110 volt appliances. And, this is also why you can have TWO convenience outlets on a stove instead of just one. One of those convenience outlets will be powered by the black wire, and the other one by the red wire. Since the main black and red wires going to a stove are fused at 50 amps each in the electrical panel, any circuit between the red and white OR black and white wires inside the stove will give you a 110 volt 50 AMP CIRCUIT which probably won't stop pumping out the electricity if there's a short anywhere in that circuit, and 50 amps going through wiring rated at 15 amps is a great way to start a fire. That's why for the electric outlets provided for convenience on range cooktops, there will be a 15 amp fuse right in the range somewhere that fuses each convenience outlet down to

15 amps. If you have two cooktop plugs, one will be driven by the red wire and one by the black wire, and each will have a separate 15 amp fuse on it.

Also, if you stop to think about it, if the black supply wire is feeding a 110 AC voltage sine wave into the white "return" wire and the red supply wire is also feeding an equal but opposite voltage into that same white "return" wire, then theoretically, there should be no voltage in the white wire since the two sine voltage waves would cancel out. Similarily, the resultant current sine waves from the red and black wires would cancel each other out when they both meet at the white "return" wire. If the world was perfect and all electrical loads were purely resistive, like light bulbs, toasters, electric ranges and coffee makers, then the voltage and current sine waves from the two power supply wires would indeed cancel each other out, and there would be theoretically be ZERO voltage and ZERO current in the white wire. However, in the real world there are electric motors and television sets and computer monitors, all of which have some "impedance". In an electric motor, for example, the magnetic fields created by the electric motor windings impeded the flow of current through those same motor windings, so the motor windings themselves cause the current sine wave coming out of the motor to lag behind the applied voltage sine wave. Also, television sets and those old CRT style computer monitors have huge capacitors in them. In a capacitor, the current OUT of the capacitor is highest when the CHANGE in voltage is highest, and that occurs when the voltage sine wave passes through the point of ZERO voltage. Thus, capacitors cause the current sine wave coming out of those computer monitors and TV sets to actually preceed the applied voltage sine wave. So, even though the red and black wires carry equal and opposite 110 AC voltage sine waves, the impedance of "reactive" loads like electric motors and TV sets cause timing differences in the resulting current sine waves coming out of those loads. So, the current and voltage sine waves generally DON'T cancel out in the white wire, and there can be significant voltages and currents in the white wire as a result. So, to be safe, treat every wire as having dangerous voltage in it.

Reply to
nestork

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