Price of Light Bulbs

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Besides the shelf life issue mentioned earlier, a rep from Philips bulbs explained that the cost of tooling up the equipment at the manufacturing plant also represents a higher cost against the lower volume selling lamps.
Imagine the following, (this is just an example no factual numbers included). If it costs $50,000 to set-up the equipment and then produce 500 bulbs the cost would be higher than if you had the same cost to set-up and you produced 5000 or 50000.
That was how it was explained to me.
Hope that is useful info for someone.
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There are a lot of things which go into the retail price of an item *other* than the cost of the materials used to make that item.
In some cases, the cost of the item itself may be very little. And the bulk of the cost may be packaging/distribution. So you may have...
Cost of materials. Say 5 cents. Cost of manufacturing. Say 5 cents. Cost of packaging. Say 50 cents per package. Cost of distribution. Say 40 cents per package.
And if they are packaging and distributing 4 items per package or only 1 item per package, the costs would be pretty much the same.
So it is a good idea to buy products in bulk. The per item cost is lower.
Then advertising. Look at cereal at the grocery store. Name brand vs generic. In some cases the generic cereal may be the same exact product as the name brand - made by the same company. However the name brand has all those advertising costs tacked on to the price of each item.
Go to a farm supply and look at the cost for food for animals. Say oats. Very little cost per ounce for a 50 pound bag.
Then go to a printing company and ask how much it would cost to print up colored packaging like a cereal box. It costs a young fortune!
"sherwindu" wrote in message

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Sherwin,
Mr.Bell- telephone Mr. Edison- Light bulb
Dave M.
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sherwindu wrote:

I noticed that too a while back, and having reached an age where I need more light to read by than I did years ago, I just picked up a few "Y" adaptors and use two 75 watters in place of a single 150 watt bulb in our end table and nightstand lamps.
That also has the advantage that when one bulb burns out I don't completely lose the use of that lamp.
I gave up on buying those pricey 3-way bulbs over 10 years ago and getting pissed off when one of the two filaments burned out. I installed "touch dimmers" in those lamps. Much easier to use than fumbling for the switch, and I get all the functionality of a 3-way bulb.
Jeff (I'm not cheap, I'm "value oriented.")
--
Jeffry Wisnia

(W1BSV + Brass Rat \'57 EE)
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One thing I have learned about this problem. Don't compose postings in the wee hours of the morning, or people will jump all over you.
My kitchen fixture can accept only one bulb. 150 is the optimum brightness, as anything higher is not appropriate for the wiring limitations.
I don't think this problem is just with 150's, but anything larger. Special very low wattage bulbs are another exception. It's just strange that the cut off point is 150 watts. It's also strange that I have checked over one dozen different stores, and they all have the same pricing structure, even Wal Mart and they usually undercut everyone else.
Let me draw an analogy with potatoe chips. Jays is well known in my area and they mostly make regular and flavored chips. They make very limited quantites of a 'no salt added' variety, which I buy often. The price of that item is no more than the other chips, yet Jays finds it economical to sell it at prices comparable to their other brands. I understand they fire up one line periodically to produce the requirements needed. Can't General Electric do the same? I cannot see anything in the design of these larger bulbs to make them more expensive. Obviously, GE and others feel that they can get their asking price, and so far there is no competition to force them to lower it.
Sherwin D.
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sherwindu wrote:

The issue here is HEAT. Incandescent lamps generate ENORMOUS amounts of HEAT.
Yes, you can insert ANY CF that will fit the fixture.
http://www.1000bulbs.com/product.php?productg28
This bulb only uses 65W of electricity so it will not overheat the fixture. Its light output is 3400 lumens or roughly that of a 250W bulb!! 8,000 hours of rated life means that you will replace it 14/ ot 1/8th as often as you replace a 150W incandescent bulb. Its 3.74 inches wide 9.65 inches tall. This bulb has near perfect color rendition with color temp of 6500 Kelvin. The downside, if any is the $20.95 price plus tax and shipping.
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Gammon wrote in part:

Non-radiant heat will be about the same as or a little more than that of a 100 watt incandescent based on my temperature rise measurements of a fixture with various bulbs - extrapolated from a 42 watt compact fluorescent heating a globe very slightly worse than a 60 watt incandescent does. The 65-watt CF could even heat a fixture almost as badly as a 150 watt incandescent, due to incandescents having heat balance shifting towards radiant from convected/conducted as wattage increases throughout the range of using the traditional argon-nitrogen gas fill in incandescents!
Of course, a 65 watt CF roughly matches to somewhat exceeds the light output of a 200 watt incandescent!

"Standard" 150 watt incandescent - about 2900 lumens "Standard" 200 watt incandescent - about 4000 lumens

Icy cold bluish daylight color about that of overcast sky, and I find overcast sky to be more like 6000 even. Got anything in the 3400-3900 K range - like carbon arcs, movie lights, projector lamps, incandescent lamps overvolted to a hair short of immediate burnout? Got anything nominally 3500K - too white for "Energy Star" due to deviating towards pure white from incandescent, but a nice "semi warm white" or "whitish incandescent" or "whiter-shade-of-halogen" color"? If not, then I would rather take an incandescent approximation in the 2700-3000K range for use in my home!

- Don Klipstein ( snipped-for-privacy@misty.com)
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Sherwin,
You mention that the bulbs look the same, that you don't see any difference in the bulbs. The size of the glass portion of the bulb is slightly larger in the 150W than the 100W. (The bulbs are designed and measured in 1/8ths of an inch diameter)
Also, the filament is slightly different as well.
Although minor differences, they can't just change the line for a few lamps.
However, as mentioned earlier that is just a portion of the extra cost, then the packaging, handling, etc. etc. all add a little to the cost all the way to the shelf price.
By the way, have you checked out the availability of a compact fluorescent to accomplish the same result as a 150W? They last far longer and use approximately 1/4 of the electricity.
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wrote:

Darn right. Jumping on posters is the only exercise I get. I think I'm losing weight.

That may be the way they express it, but based on a moderate amount of reading I've done on just this sort of thing (but other food than chips) I think they use the same line, and change the recipe of the chips occasionally. At the same time, they change the bags that are fed into the bagging part of the line. That is, I think they don't need any additional production facilities.
I don't know how light bulb production lines work well enough to compare them.

Are you accusing them of price fixing? :) But seriously, I wish I knew what constitutes illegal price-fixing and what doesn't. If GE overpriced 150's compared to their other bulbs, based on true costs including everything, and the other companies also overpriced the same product, I think that would look like price fixing. Whether people from each maker have to discuss it or not was iirc right on the borderline == it was the critical issue in one case -- and I don't remember if actual discussion was necessary, or if one company could just note where the other company priced something and then price it the same way, whether that was ok or not.
Maybe there is some other ng that knows more about this, a marketing or business or lightbulb newsgroup?

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According to the US Department of Energy
http://www.energystar.gov/index.cfm?cls.pr_cfls
If every household in the USA replaced just ONE bulb in their house with an equivalent CF, the overall pollution reduction from power plants would be equivalent to removing 1,000,000 cars from the highways!!!!!
Replacing a 100W incandescent with a 30w CF will save at least $30 in electricity costs over the life of the lamp.
In some households, replacing all the incandescent bulbs with CFs will even cut the cooling costs in summer time (going from 3000 to 5000 or more watts of heat from lamps to 300 to 500 watts of heat from CFs)
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I would LOVE to replace the ( 100 watt ) bulb in the kitchen.
It's in an open fixture over the kitchen table, It's on continuously throughout the day/evening.
Problem is; the CF I tried looks like crap, and the light it gives off makes the kitchen look like a morgue. ????

<rj>
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<RJ> wrote:

Garden variety CF do that, its the typical fluorescent light look. 2700K light is just not that appealing.
Ordering online thru one of the merchants you find when doing a Google search for Compact Fluorescent OR selecting the new models at Walmart that advertise a more natural color will do fine.
4100K color temp or higher. 100W equivalents are 23W or 26W and are available in color temps from 2700K to 6400K. The higher you go in color temp, the more pleasant the light will be.
I have a fixture that has 3 foot lamps in them. two of these lamps are 3000K the other two are 4100K. The difference is STRIKING. Light output from all 4 lamps is roughly the same at about 2000 lumens. The 4100K are whiter and subjectively brighter and colors in the kitchen are more natural with the whiter lightr.
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Hi Robert,
Our (collective) preference for a particular colour temperature is something I find truly fascinating. Personally, I find high colour temperatures in a residential application (where light levels are generally pretty low) can make a room appear "cold" and perhaps a bit "dreary". But, in addition to personal taste, some of this would depend upon the colour makeup and material composition of the room (generally speaking, warmer colours and woods tones respond better to warmer light sources).
It is widely understood in the industry that those of us living in colder, northern climates prefer, as a whole, "warm" light sources and those in warmer, southern climates prefer the opposite. It makes sense that if you live in a heating or cooling dominated climate, you would pick a light source that would, psychologically speaking, make you more comfortable.
Cheers, Paul
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Paul M. Eldridge wrote:

Well a comment from my brother, who lives in a moderate climate (reasonable balance between heat and cool), he installed a 6400K linear fluorescent tube over their sink and enjoyed the heck out of the way it looked and felt. Disappointed when it eventually burned out and he could only find 2700-3000K lamps to replace it.
OTOH, I live in a cooling dominated climate, short and sandals are standard attire almost the entire year. total heating season costs for natural gas at todays very high prices are under $100. A whiter light for us with Totally white walls and ceiling is GREAT.
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Hi Robert,
I think we're pretty much in agreement. Anyone who has travelled through South America or Asia can confirm almost all fluorescent lighting (CFL and linear) is 4,100K or higher; 5,000K seemed to be the standard and I have to confess it's rather pleasant if your objective is to stay "cool". I'm just not convinced it's as good fit for those of us living here in Canada. :)
Cheers, Paul
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I have visited Canada (Toronto specifically) and found office and retail fluorescent lighting there to be the same as the usual in "The States" - nominally 4100K.
- Don Klipstein ( snipped-for-privacy@misty.com)
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Hi Don,
Having lived in Toronto for some 19 years, I can confirm you are correct; in commercial/retail/office environments, 4100K would be most common, with 3500K and 3000K following in that order (the standard for most, if not all, North America). However, my comments were with regards to residential use and I apologize, I wasn't very clear about that.
Cheers, Paul
On Mon, 10 Apr 2006 07:21:30 +0000 (UTC), snipped-for-privacy@manx.misty.com (Don Klipstein) wrote:

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Gammon wrote:

Can you name a 6400K linear fluorescent or a 2700K one?
I have heard of 6500K linears and 3000K ones, but I am seeing some stories that need to be set straight and coming from someone that I see as advocating high color temperatures that I see as usually appearing in home use icy-cold and/or dreary-gray.

I have sweated in summertime in San Francisco - where summer is the cool season after spring and before fall, where people can wear sweaters on the streets at lunchtime or midafternoon in July, and where Mark Twain complained about summer there being chillier than winter anywhere!
But even in Philadelphia in July, 6,000's Kelvin fluorescents I find to be icy dreary and unable to appear sunny-bright short of at least 5,000 lux, and I prefer even then low-4,000's kelvin color since that can appear sunny-bright at 2,000 lux or somewhat less. And I would rather have a living room with 400 lux to be a warmish 3500K than "a bit dim" at 6500 K with 1000 lux at 6500 K appearing only a minor improvement over 400 lux atv 6500 K! I surely hate lighting appearing a bit dim with double saying same story than lighting of a homey warmish color in Philadelphia in a July heatwave and the air conditioner broken down!
- Don Klipstein ( snipped-for-privacy@misty.com)
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Don Klipstein wrote:

See this page
http://www.1000bulbs.com/products.php?cat 5T12-Bi-Pin-Fluorescent-Light-Bulbs
Granted these are 15-18 inch lamps. Color temps for these range from 3000 to 6500
In the 4 foot range as we see in many household fixture
http://www.1000bulbs.com/products.php?cat 8T12-High-Output
These are 4000K to 6500K
In the 6 foot range
http://www.1000bulbs.com/products.php?cat 5T12-Bi-Pin-Fluorescent-Light-Bulbs
Color temps here range from 4100 to 6500 with some of them the reddish lamps used in front of beef, poultry, and chicken displays in grocery stores.
In the 8 foot range seen in commercial applications
http://www.1000bulbs.com/products.php?cat 6T12-Single-Pin-Fluorescent-Light-bulbs
These are 3000K to 6500K
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Gammon wrote:

The typical CF look is not the typical CF look.
Typical CF is 2700K with color renderingh index of 82, and "typical old tech fluorescent" is nominally 4100K but in some practice as high as 4300K and with color rendering index of 62.

Although I complain about 2700K as excessively yellow-orangish, (and I have mostly the same complaint about incandescents) I would not overshoot to so much as 4100K, let alone some even higher color temperature that looks good at the 50,000-100,000 lux of middday tropical sunlight but appears icy cold pure white to bluish and has a "dreary gray effect" at typical home illumination levels only halfway fixed by good color rendering index and good spectrum.

I find that 3500K is good, a bit above 3500 is better, but 4100 is "more like stark white" at typical home illumination levels or even double that despite being a bit more orwenge-yellow than typical noontime springtime sunlight in Philadelphia, and 5000-plus I find to be icy cold and dreary in most home use! I would take 2700 kelvin color over 4100 kelvin color for home use, even though I really like mid-upper 3,000's! 5,000 or higher I see as even worse than 4100!

3-foot is uncommon enough that I see some opportunity to question brand, wattage, party number, etc? If I needed that much rework, I would get a fixture to take the lower-cost 4-footers such as F32T8/835! Meanwhile, a 50-50 mix of 3000K and 4100K should achieve about 3400-3500K (colors spread out more closer to about 1500K, explaining 50-50 3000/4100 being less than 3550). I have been saying that mid-3000's is good and higher is not as good in most home use as mid-upper 3,000's.
- Don Klipstein ( snipped-for-privacy@misty.com)
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