No-alci fuel for small engines

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From Popular Mechanics:
"Small-engine repairmen tell PM that ethanol mixed with gasoline is corroding and damaging chain saws, string trimmers and other outdoor equipment at an alarming clip. As a result, a new market is growing in U.S. hardware stores: Ethanol-free gas packaged in small cans that sell at a premium but promise to make your small engines last."
http://www.popularmechanics.com/home/reviews/outdoor-tools/can-boutique-fuel-save-small-engines-from-the-wear-and-tear-of-e10?click=pm_latest
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HeyBub wrote:

http://www.popularmechanics.com/home/reviews/outdoor-tools/can-boutique-fuel-save-small-engines-from-the-wear-and-tear-of-e10?click=pm_latest
--
According to various sources (found on the internet so you can be assured
they're true), you can remove the ethanol from station-bought gas:
  Click to see the full signature.
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wrote:

the last 2 years. (left over from friend's ultralight plane -40:1 premix.
My lawn mower and snow blower run on Shell Ultra - which in Canada is still ethanol free.
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On Mon, 18 Apr 2011 20:04:43 -0500, HeyBub wrote:

No, ethanol is added in Missouri as a mandate as gasoline hits a certain selling point. It has nothing to do with octane levels, but government stupidity.
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And then you can Drink it!
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Since the water /ethanol is on the bottom, better to decant the gasoline on top, right?
Joe
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Joe wrote:

Er, yeah.
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The issue is letting gas sit for months to absorbe water, Sthil recomends something like 60 days max for storing gas, they introduced that product for European gas which is notoriously bad. When I was there in the 60s the gas was so crappy our 67 TBird with a 390 often could Not run without a liter or TWO of alcohol dumped in to keep it from knocking. Once a tank of gas was so bad the car barely made it up a hill. We dumped in 4 Liters of alcohol to get it to tun again. So European gas itself can ruin equipment. At 110000 the tbird died with a hole in the piston from years of pre ignition. We have had gasohol for maybe 35 years? I dont remember ever hearing any dramatic life cycle difference before gasohol. From what I see just dont keep gas around more than a few months. You dont see major 2 stroke companies like Echo getting less engine life over the last 10 years, Echo now gets longer life. I think its a marketing gimmic, something someone thinks will just make money them money. I have seen actualy less water related issues with my cars since gasohol was introduced. And what about shelf life,and octane, buy a quart of that crap thats been in the store 6 months and its already deteriorated and of less octane than it advertises. Just buy less and dont store it. And run the tank dry if its stored for more than a few months.
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On Apr 18, 7:44pm, "Stormin Mormon"

Its far better to run it dry and not to keep old gas for more than a few months even in a can.
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On 4/18/2011 7:38 PM, HeyBub wrote:

http://www.popularmechanics.com/home/reviews/outdoor-tools/can-boutique-fuel-save-small-engines-from-the-wear-and-tear-of-e10?click=pm_latest Urban legend. Those of us who live in states that have had 10% ethanol/gasoline fuel for decades now have not had any problems with it -- though for those who still insist, the gov't still allows gas stations to sell pure gasoline for small engines, boats, and classic cars. Just get it from the pump so labeled.
My snowblower has only ever had the E10 ethanol gas used in it. Bought it in 1985. Still starts on the first pull. My brother-in-law uses the ethanol fuel mix in his chainsaws with the same result: there are no problems.
These claims made the rounds back in the 80s when the fuel mixture changed. They've resurrected now because of the introduction of E15 and E20 ethanol mixtures into the marketplace. But the higher-percentage ethanol mixtures are rarely offered, so they're easy to avoid. As for the E10 mix, there's no issue with it.
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Right, in Chicago where I am i think in the late 70s, early 80s we had ethanol, all my motors last till the compression is shot, i get 15 or so years out of my 2 and 4 stroke and no lawn guy or motor repair service has ever said here to get real gas. Corrosion is old gas, and old gas causes other problems like Varnish. That line i read about blowing pistons is crap also since alcohol actualy raises compression because it take a higher temp to ignite. Bad gas old gas would be the factor, not alcohol. Just dont keep it around more than a few months, dump it in your car. E15 E20 in theory should be the same. Are there even issues with E85 in motor vehicles?
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On Tue, 19 Apr 2011 07:10:39 -0700 (PDT), ransley

I'll take issue with a couple things.
First of all, in the T-Bird it wasn't the octane of the Alky that killed the engine. The octane of the fuel itself was low ("regular" grade euro gas in the seventies was something like 85 octane by our RM/2 rating) and the 390 neaded a minimum 89. They may have also had water in the gas.
Adding too much alky to the fuel mix causes engine damage because it LEANS THE MIXTURE. If the carb calibration is not changed to handle the fuel, alky leans the mixture by half. So, 10% alky leans the mixture by 5%, 20% alky by 10%, etc. A lean mixture under power takes out pistons.
Also, although alky DOES raise the octane, it is NOT because it"takes a higher temperature to ignite" Octane rating is a measurement of resistance to DETONATION, which is uncontrolled burning of disassociated "end gasses" in the combustion chamber.
As for E85 in motor vehicles, dang right there are issues if the engine is not "flex fuel" or "E85" calibrated. In fuel injected engines Alky is LESS of a problem than in carbureted engines, due in large part to the electronic controls that allow the engine to recalibrate itself to provide the right mixture and the right ignition timing to protect itself.
And YES, OLD gas is most often the issue - but OLD gas with alky is not as old, chronologically, as old gas without. (alky fuel does not store well)
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On Apr 19, 7:18pm, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:

You are wrong about the temp , you are guessing it was too hot, the plugs read correctly and did not burn hot. Knocking was present and that is proven fact to blow pistons. 2, I got 110000 and when I blew it I was beating the crap out of it in the country with that 4 barrel wide open, that day I would have ruined any motor. Yes it ignites at a higher temp- increases octane rating. And bottom line it ran 100% better with alcohol and kept the carb clean as it is a high solvent, and never any gas issues at even -25f. Alcohol, if you cant drink anymore, your car can finish the bottle.
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On Wed, 20 Apr 2011 05:33:44 -0700 (PDT), ransley

Whwere did I say it ran too hot? I didn't. I said it ran too LEAN. Lean mixtures detonate more readilly than rich mixtures.

You do NOT understand OCTANE, or detonation.

If the gas was bad and had water in it, the alky WOULD make it run better. But it CAN cause damage if too much is added.
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On Apr 20, 5:10pm, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:

If it ran lean, it would be running too hot. If it ran lean the plug temperature would have shown it burning white. Only once did I add 5% alcohol by volume, the day it didnt go up a grade, its was always normaly 1.25% or so, a Liter per 20 gallons, and that liter made a dramatic difference in Europes crap gas. Knocking beat it up, and when I blew it the plugs-cilinders were running way under normal temp from lower compression, and probably in need of timing, it was an old car using oil. The amount of alcohol I added and the type of city driving it was getting I cant see 1.25% of alcohol affecting it negatively, but in performance it was great. .
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MAybe I'm confused here, but AFAIK, the compression ratio is determine by the engine parameters and is fixed. It doesn't vary by fuel used. Compression ratio is the volume of the cylinder with the piston fully down divided by the volume with it all the way up, no? What kind of fuel the engine can safely run on then depends on the compression ratio as well as fuel/air ratio, timing, etc.

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On Thu, 21 Apr 2011 07:24:31 -0700 (PDT), " snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net"

"mechanical" or calculated compression ratio is the ratio of the volume of the cyl with the piston at bottom dead center to the volume of the cyl with the piston at top dead center (or swept volume plus clearance volume devided by clearance volume) ACTUAL or EFFECTIVE compression ratio is generally reduced somewhat by 2 factors. On old engines, cyl leakage reduces the effective ratio - and more at low RPM than at high RPM. Cam timing also reduces the effective compression ratio at low speeds - the hotter the cam (the more overlap) the lower the effective compression ratio, and the lower the compression pressure.
Since detonation is always more of a problem under high cyl pressures, you usually experience it under load at lower RPM - where thankfully the effective CR is lower, - so you can have an engine with a hot cam and 15:1 CR that will run on 92 octane without a problem in a light car, and an engine otherwise the same, but with a mild cam and 12:1 compression in a pickup truck, that pings on 97 octane.
Octane requirements also change with combustion chamber design. High turbulence chambers, with lots of "squish" and "quench" (which generally translates to higher CR as well, due to design restrictions) can require lower octane at higher compression ratios than open chambers.
Oil consumption can RAISE the octane requirement of an engine - partly because the oil has a much lower octane, and partly because it SLOWS DOWN combustion. SLOWER combustion, NOT faster combustion, is most likely to cause detonation. The theory that faster burning fuels lower octane, and slower burning fuels have higher octane is a total missunderstanding of the detonatipon phenomenon, and octane equivalency of fuels.
The longer the "end gasses" stay in the cyl, the more likely they are to detonate, because they absorb more heat and are subjected to the high pressures longer. If the fuel is fully burned, there are no "end gasses" to disassociate and detonate .
The other reason older, worn out engines can require higher octane fuel is engine deposits. If lead, carbon, etc have built up in the engine combustion chamber, 2 things (can) happen. Compression ratio can increase because the clearance volume is reduced by the accumulation. This can cause, or at least contribute to, detonation. The carbon can glow hot, causing "pre-ignition" which is similar to, different than, often mistaken for, and can contribute to - DETONATION.
Badly worn engines can also have narrow "valve margins", with almost knife edges on the valves - which can also overheat, causing pre-ignition.
Just remember - preignition is NOT detonation, but preignition can contribute to detonation - and detonation can contribute to pre-ignition. Pre-ignition is independent of ignition timing, and happens BEFORE the spark. Detonation happens AFTER the spark.
Pre-ignition is caused by (among other things) overheating, while detonation CAUSES overheating.
If you have an engine instrumented with exhaust temperature guages and cyl head temp guages, exhaust temperature will DROP when either too rich or too lean, and the interesting thing is, when you have detonation, the Cyl head temperature will climb, while the exhaust temperature drops. This is a common way to determine if an aircraft engine has reached the point of "incipient detonation" - which means "get the throttle back NOW!!!!!"

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On Thu, 21 Apr 2011 07:08:40 -0700 (PDT), ransley

noticeable change in octane - and virtually no MEASURABLE change.. The R+M/2 octane of anhydrous ethanol (200 proof) is 100.5.
What goes in fuel is NOT anhydrous, and is denatured to boot - so MABEE 99 octane. Added to 87 octane regular at 50% would give you less than 10 points improvement, so at 5% perhaps 1 point. Being real optimistic, 1.25% MIGHT get you 0.2 points octain improvement.
What it DOES do is lean the mixture, AND make it run COOLER. Most people do not understand the relationship between mixture, combustion temp, and engine temp.
Engines RUN hot when too lean only under load - due to detonation disturbing the boundary layer that keeps the metal from absorbing all the heat of the "dragon's breath".
A LEAN mixture (leaner than optimum, or stoich) actually produces LESS heat - and since Ethanol has only half the heat value of gasoline, it LEANS the mixture, and REDUCES the combustion temperature in the cyl.. I'm not saying the ethanol did not make it run better - but it wasn't the OCTANE change that did it. And if that 390 was as tired as you say, it likely didn't have enough compression to require high octane fuel anymore anyway. Also, with it burning oil it is IMPOSSIBLE to get an accurate "reading" of the plug as far as mixture OR temperature are concerned.
You don't have to believe me. And I'm 90% sure you won't, but it is absolutely true. I've been servicing and tuning engines of all kinds for over 40 years, and running them on fuel a lot worse than Euro fuel for several of those years (you want CRAP gas, you want to try burning the stuff they sell in central Africa - Zambia was bad enough - the swill they sold in Zaire was even worse - and at $2.65 per liter back in the seventies!!! There's a reason Deisels are more common there (and in Europe)
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Hell Toupee wrote:

I wonder how much advertising revenue Popular Advertising, I mean Popular Mechanics, is getting from the "gas in a can" company.
Jon
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On Apr 19, 12:31pm, "Jon Danniken"

If it sits on the shelf to long, and at that price, its crap in a can.
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