New gas furnace/AC recommendations?

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On 12/14/2010 10:17 PM, Steve wrote:

I was at a deposition last week where the defendants attorney was quizzing me about my training and where I got it. Nobody can supply the training I've had. I started out repairing window units in the early 1970's and self taught from there. My friends with all the wallpaper come to me and ask me about this and that because I've usually seen it. "Experience is a fools best teacher." Emerson. :-)
TDD
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The Daring Dufas used poor usenet style by improperly full-quoting:

You totally missed the point.
What's wrong with the customer buying a new furnace through one of those national retailers / wholesalers, and then contracting a local HVAC company to install it?
How would that result in improper installation?
The customer would save the 50%+ markup charged by the local HVAC company for the furnace.
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    Asshole - you really think you get 'wholesale price' like that ? Yeh, you probably think if a car dealership sells you a car at '$ 100 below invoice', they lost money on the deal. after all, they showed you on the invoice 'what they paid for it', right ?
    Anyone who is actualy in the business laughs out loud at the 'Internet wholesale' prices for any parts or equipment. It's double what they pay at the local supply house.
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On 12/15/2010 8:27 AM, .p.jm.@see_my_sig_for_address.com wrote:

I found the "wholesale" prices to be very amusing. :-)
TDD
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The Daring Dufas wrote:

But still cheaper than what home-owners see from local HVAC crooks.
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On 12/15/2010 6:45 PM, Home Guy wrote:

Not every HVAC company or HVAC tech is a crook. The crooks are well known to the repair guys and are hated. The dishonest service people give everyone a bad name and the good honest service techs get very upset when hearing about what one of the crooks pulled off. I spent a couple of hours at a deposition involving a lawsuit against one of the crooks who vandalized the AC belonging to the elderly mother of a friend of mine. Those crooks shorted out her compressor and told her she needed $5,500.00 worth of new system. I wasn't about to let that happen. The crooks called her out of the phone book with a $69.95 spring tuneup special which is something a lot of less than altruistic service companies do to get their foot in the door to take advantage of the less than knowledgeable customers, especially the elderly. You can usually spot the crooks by their shiny new trucks.
TDD
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On Wed, 15 Dec 2010 09:27:48 -0500, .p.jm.@see_my_sig_for_address.com wrote:

Sometimes that is true.
HOWEVER - I find quite often I could buy stuff over the internet for less than I pay my wholesale suppliers. Sometimes significantly less - but being "grey market" there is no support and often no accessible warranty.
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On Wed, 15 Dec 2010 14:06:24 -0500, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:

    Then it's not really apples-to-apples.
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On Wed, 15 Dec 2010 16:09:38 -0500, .p.jm.@see_my_sig_for_address.com wrote:

Same situation with buyng a furnace on the internet.
Identical product, significant price reduction, bur lotsa gotchas.
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On 12/15/2010 5:17 PM, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:

What about shipping charges? Some of that stuff is quite heavy. I've looked into buying some items over the net but the shipping eats up any savings in purchase price.
TDD
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The Daring Dufas wrote:

UPS ground is ridiculously cheap.
If a company like TireRack can sell tires mail-order (where the typical order weighs at least 100 lbs for 4 tires) then I can see how furnaces can be shipped cheap as well.
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On 12/15/2010 6:53 PM, Home Guy wrote:

I've seen good prices on compressors but they're very heavy and the cost of shipping made it cost the same or more than what I can get it for at the supply house. The same supply house where I can return a defective unit and get it replaced right now. :-)
TDD
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On Wed, 15 Dec 2010 19:13:45 -0600, The Daring Dufas

I got a good price on my >600 pound Unisaw a couple of years ago, with cheap shipping too (Amazon Free Super Saver). ...and no sales tax. ;-)
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On Wed, 15 Dec 2010 17:30:48 -0600, The Daring Dufas

In my business the hard to get stuff (and stuff I could save a bundle on) is generally small and light making the shipping pretty reasonable unless it comes UPS from the USA - where the brokerage kills ya.
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On Wed, 15 Dec 2010 18:17:20 -0500, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:
OK - I've got some numbers.
I dug out the handy Amprobe and checked the current draw on my Tempstar ntv6050fb furnace.
On low speed circulate it is drawing .21 amps at 116 volts AC. When it calls for heat and the Eductor fan is on high, and the hot plate ignitor is on, it draws just over 2.2 amps. When the gas lights and the ignitor shuts down, it draws 2.0 amps, and with the furnace running normally, the unit draws all of 1.5 amps. Thats about 175 VA.
Yesterday the furnace ran 6 hours and 17 minutes, and so far today 4 hour and 12 minutes. Yesterday was a pretty cold and windy day. If it runs 6.25 hours a day at 175.3 va, that is just a hair ovr 1kWh per day, and the low speed blower, running the other 17.75 hours at 34 va, consumes another .6 kWh.
IF the furnace cycles 20 times (I have not counted, but I figured I'd guess on the high side) the eductor and ignitor, running aprox 1.5 minute for each cycle, draw another .7 amps,for another 0.3 ah or .035 kWh per day - for a total of something just over 1.6 kWh per day.(48kWh per month) At 7.5 cents per kWh for the first 1000 per month, and 8.5 cents per kWh from there up, over and above the roughly $16 per month "distribution fee" from Waterloo North Hydro, if I didn't use electricity for anything else to spread the distribution fee over, it would cost me about $20 a month to run the furnace. Since I DO use electricity for other things, the incremental cost to run the furnace is only something like $4 per month for the electricity.
A half HP PSC motor, running only with the furnace calling for heat,at 475 va, would consume 93 kWh of power, costing $6.98 a month, just for the blower. If the blower on low speed circulate keeps the temperature more even and the furnace does not need to run as much because of that, the cost for the single speed PSC motor would be higher - possibly approaching $10 per month.
On the other hand, if, as some have theorized, circulating the air looses heat to the outside and/or basement, NOT running the low speed circulating fan would cause the furnace to run less - saving not only the .6kWh, but also some furnace run time.
Anyone with a PSC blower motor on a conventional standing pilot light furnace have an Amprobe and want to check the blower current draw for a sanity check?
I'm just guessing 475 Va running current.
The low speed blower is set at 600 cfm with a .1" static (default) and the heat blower speed is also at default, 0.20" static, with the AC set to 900 cfm at 0.50" static, default for a 2 ton AC according to the installers notes. The default for heat was set by the specified heat rise across the heat exchanger
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On 12/15/2010 8:14 AM, The Home Guy who is clueless about HVAC wrote:

No HVAC company will guarantee any equipment they don't supply. Me and my friends have installed used or new equipment supplied by a customer, usually commercial, with the explicit understand that nothing is under any warranty. You're not going to get any high end name brand equipment unless you go through an authorized dealer. If you do, the manufacturer is going to take action against whoever supplied the equipment when they find out. Your savings are an illusion.
TDD
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wrote:

So, who wants high end name brand eqt? I've had 36 years of experience with Ruud and all I've had fail is one AC compressor. I replaced just the compressor, not the whole condenser. And I installed a hard-start kit on my current system that is still running after 26 years. Consumer Reports survey had Ruud/Rheem as lower incidents of repairs than Trane or Carrier, though they said statistically the differences were not meaningful. And you can buy Rheem/Ruud online.
Not saying that I would do that or advise doing it, just that it can be done.

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On 12/15/2010 4:43 PM, snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net wrote:

If you can work on your own stuff, go for it. I do more repair than replace myself. A lot of HVAC companies will replace a whole condensing unit rather than the blown compressor because it's easier and they make the same profit quicker. I had an old fellow I know call me when another company came out to his house and told him his old Carrier condensing unit had to be replaced. The only thing wrong was a burned out condenser fan motor. The fan motor was a two speed which slowed down at night when the outside temperature dropped making the unit very quiet. There was also a sound insulating cover over the compressor. It was the most expensive unit produced by Carrier when he bought it years before and it was very well made. It had stainless steel hardware and there was no rust on it anywhere. It had a factory sight glass and liquid line dryer. It had an anti short cycle timer and both high and low pressure switches tied into the control circuitry to protect the compressor. I told the fellow not to let anyone tell him he needed a new unit when that one could be repaired because it was built better than most of the new units I'd seen. Simple maintenance can keep an HVAC system running trouble free for a long time, especially if it was properly installed and setup.
TDD
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Steve used improper usenet style by unnecessarily full-quoting:

Where exactly is that written? Nice to see how you try to spread FUD over this.
The manufacturer has no way to know exactly how a given furnace was purchased, and it doesn't matter in any way, shape or form how a new-in-box furnace makes it's way through the wholesale-retail chain to the customer's basement.
Once there, installation by a "professional" contractor should satisfy all the critera for the factory warranty.

The customer would not ask the contractor to assume any liability for the equipment, only for the proper installation of said equipment, which should be totally acceptible to you since you are installing perfectly good equipment, perhaps exactly the same equipment that you sell to other customers.

Your cost structure is your problem.
It must be emarassing to you when a customer finds out how much you over-charge him for the same furnace that he can buy himself from these various vendors.

I'm separating purchase of the equipment from it's installation.
There is no rational argument that you can make against a home-owner sourcing and purchasing the furnace for himself, and then contracting you or some other HVAC company to install it.
Because at the end of the day, that's all you guys really do - installation. You don't make the furnace, it just passes through your hands on the way from the factory to the customer. So don't give us any bull-crap that the customer *has to* buy it from you. That's a very unprofessional way to operate.
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    How about 'the warranty states that if installation is not done by a RECOGNISED contractor, there IS NO WARRANTY.' And no contractor who is 'recognised' ( IE set up and registered as a factory-authorized dealer or warranty contractor ) by a given brand is going to TOUCH your self-bought equipment.
    Now, sure, Pedro's Heating and Air will be glad to put it in for you. When you try a warranty claim, you will find that you have no warranty.

    When you buy something at Best Buy, and it's defective, do you expect Best Buy to stand behind it ? They didnt' make it, you know.
You idiot.
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