New Concrete & Aluminum Railing Question - Part II


For those of you following this thread, or not, I have a small deck by my front door. It was redwood, and it is being replaced with concrete.
The wood railing has been removed, and being replaced with a powder coated aluminum railing. The railing is small and measures appx. 8' long.
What is the best way to mount the new railing into the new concrete after it has cured for about two weeks?
Can we (a friend will be helping me with this) simply use a masonry bit and a drill to mount the railing to the concrete? I know that special tools need to be used.
A friend to mine says that:
QUOTE
> You are missing the point. The concrete will be the flat surface upon

UNQUOTE
The cement contractor said it is difficult to mount bolts into the concrete because we don't exactly know where those bolts will go until the concrete is poured. I don't even have the railing ordered yet.
So, help please! What would you do?
Am I safe to drill directly into the concrete? It seems this way would be sufficient. My feeling is that surely others who have had concrete decks, simply removed an old railing an drilled in a new one, esp. if they go the aluminum route.
Many thanks!
Kate
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Kate,
Don't have your exact answer, I've seen many types of railings mounted in concrete, after allowed to cure. A hole is cored and epoxy (?) is used. (keep it in the correct position while the epoxy cures) Look around at various "public" buildings with handicap access
Best example I found of this is here:
pic
http://www.hamptonconcrete.com/files/railing%20gallery/railinghydroliccement.jpg
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Oren wrote:

http://www.hamptonconcrete.com/files/railing%20gallery/railinghydroliccement.jpg
That picture is exactly what I was trying to describe.
Thanks for the info., as well as the tip on epoxy. Much appreciated.
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P.S. The pic is named "railing hydrologic cement", so check that out.
A welding/metal shop could fabricate a steel rail from tubing. Stronger than Aluminum.
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Kate wrote:

Hi, I drilled a hole using a [proper bit, then installed a star bolt in the hole to fasten the railing mounting base.(you'll have maybe three or four being 8' long)
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Tony Hwang wrote:

OK, now I am feeling better about my plan. One end will be mounted to the siding of my house, and the other two posts will each have four holes each that will need to be drilled/mounted.
Thank you!
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Here's what they use around here.
http://www.buildextapcon.com/products.asp
http://www.buildextapcon.com/TapconConcreteanchorsAvailableSizes.html
They're Blue screws made for this type of application and are available at Home Depot/Lowes etc in the hardware aisle. Comes complete with the appropriate concrete drill bit in the package. For your application, I'd use the HEX HEAD: 3/16" X 2 3/4" or 1/4" X 2 3/4"
I' ve used these several times for anchoring door frame, aluminum railing base and even (2X4 & 2X6) lumber bottom plate to concrete. They work well. Just drill slowly and carefully ( dont have the drill set on High speed). I like to pull the bit out every 1/2 - 1" inch or so and suck the dust out of the hole with a Shop Vac. Make sure the hole is "clean" before inserting the Blu Screw and use a socket drive to turn it down.
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NOTE: the website says MAX imbedding: 1 3/4" so if you re going with a regular aluminum flange ~ 3/16", then I'd go with the 1 3/4" ones. Less drilling anyway.

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Rudy wrote:

Noted with thanks.
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Rudy wrote:

This is excellent info. I have gotten so many great ideas that I have my homework cut out for me. This is exactly what I am looking for to finish the project.
I will report back in around three weeks to let everyone know how it went.
The concrete man is starting tomorrow.
Many thanks.
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Kate wrote:

Hi, After concrete cures enough. drill and install star nut. And bolt onto it.
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Tony Hwang wrote:

Back in the stone age, we would take our best guess as to where the railing mounts would be, and shove an aluminum pop can into the concrete at that point. Once railings showed up, and the porch had sort-of cured, we'd tug the pop cans out, and set the anchor sockets in the hole with fast-setting cement. Probably not as strong as setting the bolts in the original pour, but stronger than epoxy-setting the bolts in drilled holes.
I'd aim at having holes for the vertical rails to drop down into, rather than bolting to a flat surface. Not likely the rails will ever be pulled UP strongly, but they definitely need to be strong against sideways forces. You can always kid-proof them with wedges in the sides of the holes.
-- aem sends...
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aemeijers wrote:

Interesting story re: the pop can. I am printing out all of this great info. and giving it to a friend who will be helping me with the railing.
Many thanks.
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neighbors upgraded to Aluminum. railings, almost useless weak , in a fall may well break away and person fall 10 feet. these bolted to the surface.
far better to cement in a strong railing into the slab.
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*You can drill and hope that you don't hit a stone or rebar in either case you would have to move your hole. Drilling is not the most secure as anchors can become loose from excessive stresses put on the rail. I suppose an epoxy based system would be the best in this respect. Having the bolts go in while the concrete is soft is optimum. Even better is to have them secured to rebar before the pour. You should contact the rail manufacturer for a template of the bolt placement.
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John Grabowski wrote:

Thank you. I love this newsgroup. I appreciate all the great info. given.
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Around here, it's done all the time. Lags & shield. You'll of course need a masonry bit, lags & shields can be bought by the piece, not necessarily by the box. For example: http://www.confast.com/products/lag-shield-anchor.aspx
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Larry Smead wrote:

.
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Kate wrote:

Hard to say without seeing the railing and how it mounts. The photos are about useless since they take wood posts and you are using aluminum. I suggest picking out a railing then come back here with some specs.
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