Goodbye 100w, 75w Incandescent Lamps

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JoeSpareBedroom wrote:

Can't happen, therefore not a concern.
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Why not?
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JoeSpareBedroom wrote:

Propose a _reasonable_ scenario by which it could.
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Reasonable in terms of what? Bad people gaining access to the rods? That would be step #1, right? Is that the step you'd like to discuss first?
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JoeSpareBedroom wrote:

No, I don't really want to discuss any of it. These scenarios have been reviewed over and over.
What do you think a typical PWR fuel assembly weighs...
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I don't know. How much?
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JoeSpareBedroom wrote:

I asked first...I would like to get a feel for what you think you know about what you think could be done by a little band of uglies...
You get a bunch of guys together and work up a plan for your scenario and how to pull it off successfully and then we can talk.
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You must have a rather menial job if you think you've already imagined everything that's possible.
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JoeSpareBedroom wrote:

You figure out a scenario that's possible and I'll wager there are systems or plans to deal with it. If not, the people who still do these things for a living (I'm retired from engineering; back farming) would be happy to have it as a test.
Your scenario of somehow managing to take the contents of a spent fuel assembly and slicing and dicing it up into shreds is simply physically unrealizable (as you would understand if you had any knowledge whatsoever of what you're proposing to be done with what).
It's this totally irrational fear that your postings demonstrate that are what the anti's prey on. The lack of any scientific understanding in the general populace allows them to propose the most cockamamie ideas and doomsday scenarios and the scare tactics are effective because there simply is no comprehension of the target audience it's virtually all made up "what if" stuff.
Just for starters on nuclear station statistics --
Oconee-class PWR data (similar but not identical to Shoreham--different manufacturer but same licensing standards)
Reactor Pressure Vessel: steel walls over 8 inches thick, SS liner (continuous weldment) weight over 660 tons Containment building: Walls 3.9 feet thick, reinforced concrete 7/8 inch thick steel liner
Somewhat surprisingly, after having left B&W so wasn't doing detailed design calculations, I couldn't recall actual weight for one of their assemblies otomh, either--the numbers I could remember didn't seem right so I did a quick scribble --
(OTOH, the numbers I do remember are somewhat remarkable--having done the calculations w/ them for so long, they are simply engrained. I'll use the earlier 15x15 fuel bundle data; the 17x17 were being phased in but the Oconee-class were initially fueled w/ the 15x15. There is no real difference in performance between the two, the switch was made to increase the overall fuel rod surface area in order to lower the overall core power density. This made for a lower fuel rod temperature which makes for more margin for centerline fuel melt in the event of LOCA--just one case where we were looking out for you w/o you knowing it. :) )
Anyway, the fuel assembly is 8.520" square (on an 8.587" assembly pitch), active fuel length is 144". The density of UO2, the commercial fuel is 10.9 g/cm^3; we'll ignore the U235 enrichment for this--it's only 3-5% max, anyway. So, the above leads to 1.87 MT-UO2 if it were solid, but the fuel volume fraction is 0.303301 (see what trivia I _do_ remember? (!) ) so the fuel weight is about 0.57 MT or 1245 lb. Add on the end fittings, fuel rod cladding, hold down springs, etc., and the overall assembly will be on the order of 1500 lb, 12+ ft long and 8.5" square--not exactly something you pick up under an arm and walk away with, even if it weren't radioactive.
Actually, when I back this out, the other number I recalled but wasn't comfortable with w/o checking was that there is a 100 MT per core for the Oconee-class reactors--since there are 177 fuel assemblies, 177 * 0.57 ==> ~100 MT which confirms that recollection, too and I could have saved the effort.
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OK. You're right. Nothing weighing 1500 lbs or more has ever been stolen. Have a nice day.
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JoeSpareBedroom wrote: ...

Look into the security around a nuclear facility and decide how you're going to move that 1500 lb in an 13-14' long fragile-horizontally-oriented, radioactive piece of material in the presence of all sorts of radiation alarms, etc., w/o _somebody_ in the know knowing....that's all.
You're proposing the totally ludicrous hypothetical w/o a shred of plausibility of how it could be accomplished. Useful as scare tactics for the uniformed or apparently to feed your neuroses, but beyond that of little interest to anyone w/ any information at all.
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Our own military is paying people to dream up scenarios they (and you) haven't thought of yet.
Box cutters. Who'd a thought, ya know?
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So pick up your box cutters and go try to steal some spent fuel rods. Let us know how you get on.
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Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
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Hells, bells. A modicum of life experience and a LITTLE technical reading disallows such ridiculous speculation. Thanks for taking the time to bury him with (apparent) facts. I learned something, too. Good show.
--
:)
JR

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I take it back: When I said you were "sophomoric" I was obviously too complimentary. -- JR
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Wait, WAIT!! I know!! [Furiously waving hand over head]
It involves a UFO, shape-shifting and time travel.
(What do you MEAN that's not reasonable?)
--
:)
JR

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wrote:

Hmmm.....box cutters.
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Very young children and the oldest adults would be hardest hit. (Women and minorities, too, of course.) They would, however, have to consume large quantities of seriously contaminated water.
For the bulk of the rest of the consumers, they would probably ingest (probably) about the equivalent of a couple or three chest x-rays. Given that the average adult is traditionally UNDER-hydrated, the effect would probably be less.
It would take a *LOT* of ground-up, spent fuel rods to successfully (fatally) contaminate an open reservoir serving 3-million consumers.
Such hypotheticals are wonderful entertainment for those that preoccupy themselves with dead-end scenarios but of little concern to those with an otherwise "normal" life.
--
:)
JR

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wrote:

As far as you know.....
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wrote:

trying to handle radioactively HOT spent fuel rods is a *quick* suicide.
Wikipedia has a nice piece on pebble-bad reactors and the fuel "pebbles",fully describing the outer shell each pebble gets,and discusses security.
--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
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