Gas or Oil?

[David L]

Hi all,

I'm a homeowner on Long Island, NY. My heating system is about 45 years old now, so I guess it's finally time to replace it.

I've met with a couple of contractors already and I must say I'm still not at all sure whether I want to go gas or oil.

Currently I have an oil system. I'm in a 2500 sq foot house with 2 zones and there are 4 people in the house. It's baseboard hot water heat. I have a 275 gallon oil tank that's about 7 years old and it's inside the house. I haven't had any problems with oil over the 6 years I've been here and the oil company has serviced my account and system very well.

Since I'm replacing the whole system, I figure I might as well look at converting to gas. We have gas cooking and the gas meter is about 12 feet away from where the new boiler would be placed. The gas contractor installed my central A/C, so I'm pretty sure he'd service the gas boiler properly as well.

I guess the first consideration would the price of the fuel. The gas people say natural gas is cheaper and the oil people say oil is cheaper. I'm locked in at $1.65 for the winter. I think I timed it right before it skyrocketed in October. I think a 1 year cap price now is about $2.10. The gas company told me gas is at $1.72/therm. How do I compare the numbers to see which is cheaper? What's the equation to figure that out? Is there any indication of which would be cheaper over time or are there just too many variables and it's impossible to know which will be cheaper 5 years from now?

The oil company suggested a Weil-McLain WTGO-4. They didn't think that I'd need a separate hot water heater. I'm easily getting enough heat now without out and with a new unit, I guess I'd get hot water a little faster, but my needs might go up as the children get older.

The gas company has conversion special for a Burnham Q205. The gas contractor says that's what I'd need.

How would these boilers fit my needs based on the size of the house and number of people?

With a 50 gallon hot water heater and removal of my oil tank, going to gas is about $650 more than going with oil (without the hot water heater). I think a hot water heater from the oil company was another $1200 or so. I only have to buy oil from the oil company for 1 year at the standard cap price. There's no long term commitment at a "posted" rate.

I think that pretty much covers everything. What are the pros and cons that I should be weighing to make this decision?

Thanks in advance for all replies.

[John Hines]

I recently compared my natural gas bills (92-04) with someone's memory of gasoline prices, and found that both had gone up the same 230%.

With gas, you pay whatever you utility charges you, thus it is one less thing to have to worry about, the oil market place, capping, timing, etc.

What has the price of gas done over your billing history for the stove?

[Clark W. Griswold, Jr.]

First of all, gas, oil and electricity are more or less tied to each other, so you aren't going to see massive long term differences in equivalent pricing.

Electricity is always going to be the most expensive for a number of reasons, including higher generation and distribution costs, as well as lower over all efficiency (yes, people like to point out that electricity is 100% efficient in the home, but conveniently ignore the rather large line loss involved in pushing it as much as 2000 miles across the country).

Oil has the problem of a limited number of refineries in the US as well as the tie to suppliers like OPEC. Any time one goes down for unexpected maintenance, prices spike. I suspect (but haven't checked) that oil furnaces also lead gas in emissions.

Natural gas used to be significantly cheaper than either of the above, but that difference has narrowed as more gas fired generators and industrial users have come on line.

I would still go gas as it avoids the hassle of dealing with potential tank removal problems, leaks, as well as the refinery issues.

[Terry]

This seems like a classic example for doing a cost study for one's individual situation. No one else will have the magic answers for you, your residence or area.

Such a study has two main components;

1) The First cost of a new installation. Also how long will it last; presumably many years, before it in turn will also need replacement. 2) The expected future and on going costs of operating and maintaining. The financial effect of these can be brought back, financially if you wish to a 'Present Worth' cost, in order to compare them directly.

3) Thirdly YOU have to decide what future variables may/will affect you. This will include existing and future costs of fuel, current and future major repairs and when and if they will occur. This may include a future new chimney, oil tank replacement at some future date, future changes in oil tank leakage regulations, possibility that additional liability insurance will be needed to guard against environmental pollution due to oil leakage into ground water etc.

4) Fourthly there will be intangibles that only you can decide if/will affect your decision. these might include future government policies, whether you will ever increase the size of your house, add heating to a future garage, whether you want a system that will be easiest to maintain when you retire, sell or rent the house etc. etc. Also whether these will incur any difference in cost either now or in the future. Intangibles also would include your own assessments of the comparative risks of the various fuels. This would include the need for Carbon Monoxide/Smoke detectors wired and linked as required by local regulations? Insurance requirements? I would suggest that much of this information could be obtained by getting 'several' quotes for both oil and gas for the 'first costs' and also some numbers from the fuel providers for their expectation of future costs. But YOU decide what you think future fuel costs will be.

5) Your choice must adequately do the job you want it to do under all reasonable/expected conditions short of a world flood or a 250 mph windstorm!

While agreeing that electricity is generally more expensive it also has advantages. We decided to go all electric some 34 years ago and for us it was good choice. Our advantages and savings were; no requirement to purchase and install a fuel tank which by now would have needed replacement at least once! No cost for chimney and no need to clean it regularly. Great simplicity of installation, virtually zero maintenance (one circuit breaker and three thermostats, one of which was replaced for cosmetic reasons during

34 years!). Ability to turn down or off, individual rooms, an advantage now that there is now only a single person in a four bedroom house. Currently though the cost of electricity has increased by about 8% and is rumoured to increase gain mid 2005 due to the increased cost of oil which fuels one generating station that produces about 40% of our electricity, particularly during the winter. It has also proved extremely safe and the electric supply very reliable.

BTW. If I install 'auxiliary' heating, say in the form of a properly chimnied and installed wood stove there would be a reduction in my electricity fuel cost, but it would increase my property insurance due to a higher fire risk. At age 71 I am still able to safely maintain our electric heating system with ease. Whereas the maintenance of an oil tank system and responsibility for spilled fuel oil into the ground, which has happened several tomes here at major cost to homeowners, often not covered by insurers, here, would be a worry.

So do a comparative cost study using all obtained info and reasonable financial parameters for interest rates/cost of money etc.

[v]

You can almost forget about trying to figure out which fuel is cheaper. They are tied to each other in the market, people buy btus, there are many industrial and utility users who can burn either so if one gets lower they switch until it evens up again, and/or single fuel users will go to the other, again until it evens out. Any significant difference will likely be merely temporary. If anything gas may have a more efficient distribution system - nobody needs to drive out to your house in a truck.

Gas, the utility charges what they charge, which is either a good thing or a bad thing. However you can often buy a supplier contract if you like to get into that stuff (in my area, we do that for our commercial properties) and play that market.

Oil, there are plenty of different companies, they charge what they charge, you can try toi time that too, I don't with my residence, I like the company and just go with them. As a result I bargain more for my gas than my oil!

Oil, a leak can be very VERY costly to clean up. There are situations where this is your responsibility.

Gas, a leak may blow up your house and kill you. This is rare but does indeed happen. However, most leaks are minor and just blow away and don't need any cleanup.

My opinion, you already have gas in the house, so worst of both worlds

- chance of both blowing up and expensive spill, too. So get rid of the oil and eliminate that peril. You are apparently already comfortable with having the gas in the house, just go with it. It MIGHT even be a LITTLE cheaper, and whether you find utility pricing better or worse in concept than negotiating your own is up to you.

There is no wrong answer. (Years ago, there was.)

-v.

[Bill Seurer]

Another option is propane if it cane be delivered in your area. In some (many?) places you can prepay and get it at the low summer rate thus avoiding any winter price hikes.

[HA HA Budys Here]

I live on LI also, and did this 3 years ago. I switched to Natural Gas from oil. I did not already have gas, It had to be piped in from the street. That line was free (100') and so was the gas boiler.

I would never go back to oil.

My advice to you is definately shop around and do NOT marry the idea that you have to go with a "big name" gas or oil dealer to do your install. Local plumbers often charge much less and they do a more professional job than the punchclock hacks the big company's hire.

I was quoted 3800.00 from a "Keyspan affiliated" installer. I had to demand an itemized estimate because I couldn't figure out how it could possibly cost 3800 for the installation of a simple, straightfoward gas boiler and water heater

12' from an already installed gas line, when the boiler is being provided "free."

Under labor it estimated 2 men, 10 hours, @ 175.00 an hour.

Now... I know nonunion plumbers on Long Island don't make 25.00 an hour, and for sure no shop sends 2 high-paid mechanics to do a residential install. In addition, the quote did not include the Keyspan "required" item that the old oil tank be either removed or cut & filled, or otherwise renederd harmless. The contractor was going to skip that part. I ran inot similar issues with another "approved" contractor, and the 3rd wouldn't give me an estimate because, although they signed up to partake in the gas-conversion program, they were mainly an oil delivery/service company and instead tried to talk me into keeping oil, and using them to install/service a brand new oil burner.

Explore your gas options on the Keyspan website:

My experience has been all positive.

- heating costs cut in 1/2 over the old oil burner. (it was circa 1975)

- whisper quiet.

- no more oily smell in the oil burner area.

-no more tank (mine was buried) or leak worries

-separate WH - could take hot shower even during blackout

-much smaller boiler, though now with a separate WH all takes up about the same floor space in my 10 x 10 laundry/utility room. To be fair, new oil heating boilers are also much smaller then they used to be.

-option to balance gas bills out across 12 months.

-can't possibly "run out" of gas

I've made more coments to your questions below.

The key to helping with the confusion when comparing gas to oil is to NOT take advice or suggestions from oil dealers OR gas companys. They have a intrest in your choosing their fuel. Talk to a licensed local plumber.

Although it's smart to have your system serviced/checked at least once a year, you'll find that gas is by far practically maintainence free. (especially boilers, as opposed to gas hot-air furnaces.) There's no sooty chimneys, no filters, no nozzles to wear out. The rest of the plumbing is exactly the same.

As other have posted, because so many high-users of fuel have switched to dual-fuel (Like LIPA and whatever manufacturers happen to be left along the Eastern seaboard) and large buildings as well as schools, etc, the cost of the

2 fuels side-by-side is negligable.

There's 2 ways to get hot water via gas. Either via a separate storage tank heated by your heat boiler's zone, or via a completely separate gas water heater. Separate WH's are very cheap and simple appliances and work w/o electricity.

With oil, you can get a completely seperate WH with it's own oil burner (expensive, almost as much as a heating boiler) or via a domestic hot water coil inside the heating boiler (which is separate from the water which circulates through ypour heating zones) or, with a separate hot water storage tank heated by a boiler heating zone.

Since your original equipment dates back to the 60's, keeping your oil boiler and converting it to run on gas would be throwing good money after bad.

[David L]

[e-mail] (HA HA Budys Here) wrote in news: [e-mail]:

Would you like to recommend the people you used either here or via email? If you go with a smaller company, where do you get 24/7 emergency service and annual check-ups from?

Well the quote from the gas contractor was to replace everything. There's no use in anything I currently have.

[John Gilmer]

An "All Electric" house can be quite cost effective. You have to have electric service anyway and when you have, say, gas heat you pay the top seasonal rates for both gas and electric. With all electric you save (directly and indirectly) the cost of bringing one more utility to your property including stuff like reading the meters.

[v]

Not in a heating climate (exception: people who have access to artificially low below market electricity). Fuel is burned to create heat from which electricity is made (inefficient process). The electricity is then transmitted a long distance (somewhat inefficient process). At the house, it is converted back to heat (that part is efficient).

If what you really need is the heat, is in inherently more efficient to burn the fuel at your house.

-v.

[someone]

If your thinking geothermal heat pump heating, then you might be correct. If you're talking about resistive heating in cold weather and air-to-air heat pump in mild weather, then you don't understand electric rates in the northeast US.

[m Ransley]

An All Electric house is a joke for 98% of the US that live in areas north of zone 8 as electricity is double the cost per BTU for most. If heating season is expensive unless you have subsides Hydro, gas is the cheapest.

If OP is looking for total replacement gas units are up to 94.5% efficient, that is higher than oil units go.

[willshak]

I was under the impression that if you have an all electric house, the electric company charges less per Kw hour than for houses that are not all electric. I don't know since I don't use electricity for anything other than those things that require electricity to run. Unlike George Gobel, I don't have a 'gas' guitar.

[John Gilmer]

You HAVE heard of the "heat pump," havn't you?

With electricity the situation is that just about EVERYONE wants air conditioning in the summer. Gas air conditioning is, at best, a PITA so electric is the default. SO: whether you also have gas or oil makes NO difference in your electric bill in the summer. That gas is cheaper in the summer isn't particularly important as the meter charges are usually on the order of fuel use for hot water and cooking.

In the winter, GAS/OIL are expensive but electric service (for "all electric" homes) is CHEAP.

[John Gilmer]

I understand very little about the NE United States.

But I do understand that even resistance heat can be cost effective under certain circumstances. Resistance heat truly provides heat ONLY when and where it is needed.

Frankly, I have usually lived where electric rates are reasonable (partly because the utilities have build and properly maintained nukes plants.) With the Canada hydro power, the NE should have reasonably priced electric. If the NE had a few more nukes ....

>

[John Gilmer]

Two things:

1) Heat pumps (especially ground source heat pumps)

2) "Micro zoned" heating whereby you only heat the ROOMS (no the zones) of the house in active use.

It would be silly to automatically shut out consideration of all electric (with, maybe, a propane vestless heater for backup) living.

In places where it gets VERY cold, you can consider heatpump "background" heat with baseboard electric for room by room comfort.

[m Ransley]

Gilmer you know Zip about what 98% of the US pays for electricity. It is more than twice the cost of gas per BTU...... Heat pumps? here it goes to -20, so no heat pumps. Gas is cheaper, again.....

Electricity is so much more money that in fact the Chicago utility company used to give free and instal free an electric furnace and utility upgrade. Because they would have a rapid payback. And of course , to the surprise of the recipient who was shocked to death over his more than doubling of utility costs.

Figure this, gas is used to generate electricity here. If electricity was competive Electric furnaces would be in competion with gas. I dare you to find a residential electric furnace istaler in areas of the US with .11 kwh- .13 kwh costs, that is all of the US that is not Hyrdo subsidised Now research your " thoughts" before you speak them. Hopefully you will post further with facts , not misinformed misinformation.

[someone]

1) The Three Mile Island cleanup is one of reasons electric rates are so high in the NE US. :-) 2) Good luck finding support for building more nukes in the densly populated NE US with all of this talk of terrorism. There's a battle over offshore wind farms on Cape Cod because of "environmental impact" and they will "ruin the view" and you think we'd be smart enough to build _nukes_ before oil reaches $150/barrel?

[Medusa]

To me you have your answer right there. There is nothing toastier in the winter (in NY) than hot water baseboard heat. Your tank is not buried so it will last much longer. If I had the money, what you have right now would be my preference. I live in MD and have an all-electric heat pump system. It is great year round except in the coldest months. But the fans blowing are noisy, dusty and very drying though that is remedied with a humidifier. I would love to have my former NY home with hot-water baseboard heat back (but in MD).

[me]

Ive always felt this way also.

It would seem to me that sense resistive electric heating can be so easily controlled and "zoned"...... that maybe THAT could make up for the inefficiencies in the cost of it. Yes?

In other words..... given that electric heat costs more.... can one finesses it more by zone heating and other controls and save overall over gas?

Talking ONLY resistive elect heat here.... not geothermal.