Bathroom GFCI with no ground?

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Wayne Whitney wrote:

406.3-B "...shall have those contacts connected to an equipment grounding conductor." "Exception No. 2: Replacement receptacles as permitted by 406.3-D"
406.3-D replacement of receptacles shall comply with D-1,2,and 3 as applicable 406.3-D-3 "Non-Grounding Type Receptacles. Where attachment to an equipment grounding conductor does not exist in the receptacle enclosure, the installation shall comply with D-3-a, D-3-b, or D-3-c." 406.3-D-3-b allows GFCIs to be used. The GFCI ground terminal is not allowed to be extended to downstream receptacles 406.3-D-3 allows grounding receptacles to be used where downstream from a GFCI. A ground is not allowed to be connected between the receptacles.

They do not conflict.

The intent is clear. (A rare miss.)
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Whoops, I completely missed that. Thanks for the catch.
Cheers, Wayne
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In wrote:

OK; since we're clarifying, lets be a tad more accuate. I only add this for clarification, no other reason. Many homes have a mix of such 2 and 3 wire installations and it's easy to misunderstand some things.

A GFCI is for "safety", not people. Kind of minor on the surface, but important in the altogether. Also, lack of a ground for equipment that needs it -could- lead to lethal shock situations where under a single fault condition it could lead to anything from shock to fire.

Well, not from "within the device" but from any point in the entire circuit on the Load side of the GFCI; wire, connections, equipments, etc.. Sufficient leakage anywhere will trip the GFCI. It simply measures and compares hot/neutral current, as you said.

If there is anything anywhere, not just within the device, that causes a differential, the gfci will trip.

NEC definitely recommends AGAINST doing so, and requires the markings. In addition, NEC is not the final word; NEC is only minimum requirements. The local Code Enforcement Office will have the final say on whether a 3-prong outlet can be used without an earth ground connection. Here such 2-wire methods with 3-wire outlets etc. are specifically verboten in the kitchen, bathroom and outbuildings. Many people forget that it's the local codes that must be satisfied; the NEC may be but one component of the electrical requirements. The NEC/local codes would reall only come into the picture if it was new work. e.g. when I added a ckt, all they checked was the ckt, and nothing in the rest of the house. Some localities however insist that if you touch the wiring at all the whole building has to be brought up to code. It varies all over the map.

Nah, no serious corrections were needed. Just had time to do a little further clarification, so did.
Regards,
Twayne`
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Twayne wrote:

Whatever that means.
The 5mA trip level on a GFCI is for people.
Some other GFIs (including most AFCIs) trip on a ground fault of 30mA. That is for the protection of equipment or fire.

That, of curse, is what the GFCI is for.

Cite.
Where. There would be no electrical changes in those locations - extremely counterproductive.

You forgot to clarify that your previous post was wrong and Derby was right.
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In wrote:

You will be fine. If in doubt, look it up on Google or better yet, read the box sides in the store; the information is usually right on the outside of the containers.
HTH,
Twayne
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In wrote:

That's correct. The "ground" in the name is NOT meaning current inside the device going to ground; it means power finding an improper path to ground, in general.
HTH,
Twayne
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Mark wrote:

Yes, since the test circuit is internal to the GFCI and includes an approximately 15,000 ohm resistor that connects between the device's hot and ground leads when the TEST button is pressed.
GFCIs pass the hot and neutral AC lines through the center of a transformer coil. Normally the currents in the wires are equal and opposite, resulting in no current flow in the secondary of this transformer, but when a ground fault occurs, the wires will not carry equal current, and that's why GFCI operation does not require a ground connection. In fact GFCIs are required to provide protection even without that ground.
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bud-- wrote:

That's interesting. Thanks. I never would have thought of that -- the PEX or plastic replacement in the future.
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Jay-T wrote:

Its them PEX fanatics on this newsgroup that have ruined it for the rest of us.
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Yep, not a great idea.
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Oops, "UP.SO." should be "P.S." in my original post.
Jay-T wrote:

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Yes, it's OK to install a GFCI with no ground and mark it as such.
Since it's OK to install a GFCI with no ground, there's no need to answer your second question.
UP.SO. BTW...It's a bad idea.
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