There is a lesson to be learned from your story. First, the lowest price is not the best value.
You'd do far better by finding a good small shop, one that comes from recommendations, one that proves trustworthy over time, and stop shopping. Trust him, give him all your business, pay him promptly. .
The big chains are hit or miss. Some are good, others are on the sleazy side, all tend to be high priced and have a "replace everything" attitude.
True, you might only need pads, but if the don't turn the rotors (if they are thick enough) the pads will not seat and the brakes will not work like they are supposed to, therefore they will not give you a warranty.
Because they develop a glaze on them. The new pads need a fresh surface to seat properly.
Would you install new piston rings without honing the cylinders?"
com:
TELL THEM IN ADVANCE YOU MUST HAVE ALL WORN OUT PARTS!
I giot into a 6 month hassle with Midas Muffler, they found a bad CV joint boot, and inssted the joint was bad too. So I said OK give me the joint:)
It was fine, but before it was thru i had talked to the president of midas muffler he assured me the local franchissee was honest as the day was long. talked to a former employee wo left cause he got tired of ripping off customers, talked to a bunch of victims err customers in their waiting room and warned them they are going to pick your pocket.
less than a month later a inverstigative report came out, midas lost their state inspection license, many stores closed, would of loved to see the people i warned say that guy was right when he nearly got thrown out of the store warning us.
a small local mechanic is often a better choice.
but in this case i support replacing the rotors.
if they dont and you leave and have a accident they run the risk of being sued
That's as relevant as moldy bread behind the refrigerator.
If the brake pedal isn't pulsing and depending on your driving habits..... If the drivers are an easy on the equipment type of drivers a new set of decent brake pads ought to get you at least 30-40K miles down the road and possibly twice that amount. If you or the driver are hard on brakes such as frequent long hard stops than put everything back to new car specs and that includes changing the brake fluid every two years. And did you know? A new set of pads needs to be properly "broken in".
But folks tend to love standardized big box places and chains because they are "their friends". Long story short I was out of town and had a C/V joint fail. I got off the pike and when I engaged the clutch nothing happened, I opened the hood and I could see the little stub shaft coming out of the transaxle hanging in the breeze. It gave no advance warning at all.
AAA towed me to a big mega chain place. While I was waiting I called back home to my evil small business mechanic who I trust and he described that it was a really straighforward job on my car (less than 1 hour) and they simply swapped out the complete assembly with a re-manufactured unit and that it was inexpensive because it was basically a commodity because the same one was used on numerous model years.
An hour later the "service manager" came over with his clipboard with the "computer analysis" and informed me that it was a 3 hour job and his $230 quote for the part was also excessive. I called two local to that area auto parts places while waiting and asked for the price on a complete C/V joint assembly. Both were less than $90.
I mentioned what I found and he told me they could only install their "certified parts". No choice since I was out of town I told them to do it. When I waited I could see that this was their SOP as they handled other customers.
While I waited a girl pulled up with a small pickup that had the name of one of the parts placed I called and she came to deliver the "certified parts" for my vehicle.
They only had a little window into the service shop but I watched as they quickly pulled out the old assembly and walked away and then returned two hours later to install the new assembly.
After a while the "service manager" came marching over with a serious look to tell me that they really needed to discuss something with me. They had the wheel off and showed me the normal wear pattern on the rotor and told me that was very dangerous and I shouldn't even drive the car. I played stupid and asked him to tell me more. He said that the rotor was "dangerously thin" and could shatter. I asked him to write it down and maybe draw a little sketch so I could better visualize it. He said he couldn't. Then I informed him that the specs for the minimum thickness were stamped on the edge of the rotor and that I wanted him to read the spec and get a caliper to measure the thickness to show me. If he wouldn't I would call the police and have them witness him doing it and I would press charges. He said , OK sir-if you will go to the waiting room we will put your car outside.
Why people love big boxes and chains I will never know.
I'm with Jim and the other guys who say replacing rotors or turning them everytime pads are replaced isn't necessary. I'm surprised no one here has mentioned RTFM. The service manual from the auto manufacturer that is. I've been doing the brakes on my Mercedes myself for years and it now has 135K miles. I've never touched the rotors unless necessary and that has only been when they were worn down close to min spec. What does the MB shop manual say? That the rotors should be checked for thickness and run-out As long as they are within spec and look OK, nothing needs to be done.
Some folks claim that rotors routinely get "glazed" and the new pads won't work unless that is corrected, If the rotors got glazed, the old pads wouldn't be stopping the car either. I've just replaced pads many times and never had an issue with any braking problem. Rotors in normal usage just have a smooth shiny finish to them from metal being worn off.
Other thoughts. In many cases, if the rotors could be re-used by turning them, it's not worth it. With today's labor rates, for the same price as turning them or just $20 more, you can get new ones. Shops likely tell people they have to be changed for 2 reasons:
1 - It's more money in their pocket2 - It somewhat reduces the risk to them because with everything new, there is a little less chance that the car will come back with a problem. That's especially true where they have some employees working that don't even know what a micrometer is.
Never found seating to be a problem, but it probably can under the right conditions. OTOH, this may save you a few bucks if the brakes are pulsating.
Another cure that I've not tried, is a series of about hard stops from 60 to about 5 as hard and fast as you can. It is supposed to burn off any residue.
So, you have brakes that are pulsating. And you're supposed to take them apart, put on a set of new semi-metalic pads, scrub with garnet paper, use them hard, etc. to try to fix it? Who in their right mind would do all that instead of just buying new rotors or turning the old ones? In my experience, a pulsating peddle is a WARPED rotor and none of that procedure is gonna solve it. Even if it might be capable of solving it, it's one hell of a lot more work than the obvious and correct solution. And when it doesn't work, you get to do it all over again.
"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in news:06WdncU9i8pdjc7WnZ2dnUVZ snipped-for-privacy@giganews.com:
if the disc isn't grooved,then it doesn't need turning,and the new pads will "seat" just fine.
I've never seen disc rotors have "deposits" of friction material. generally,the pad material turns to dust.
That's your mind. Many others seem to have a different mindset. This has been discussed frequently on auto groups and information is on various web site. A Google search will reveal many opinions of professional mechanics that differ from your thought.
In any case, new rotors will solve the problem.
FWIW, I have a 3/4 (or1) ton 2001 Dodge van company truck that I have had since new. At about 47K, the chirpers on the pads started making noise. I went to the parts house down the street from our shop, got a set of the best pads they had, about $50, put them on myself--did absolutely nothing but replace the pads. At about 97K, we were doing a routine inspection onthe truck, including pulling the wheels and checking the brakes. The pads still had probably 10-15K left on them, but our manager had a garage we use replace them and they turned the rotors at the same time. Truck has 125K on it now, still stopping fine, and still has the original shoes/drums in the rear. Larry
If you never want to replace your calipers again, flush your brake fluid every two years. I have a Motive PRoducts pressure bleeder and it's inexpensive and works great. Whenever you change pads, make sure to lube up all the caliper sliders and replace any corroded hardware. If you do this, your calipers should last at least as long as your hoses.
nate
Another way to look at it. the absolute worst thing that can happen is that you pay a bit more money. Your brakes will work like new, guaranteed. At least in this case, if you are getting ripped off, you are getting new brake parts in return so the money isn't being wasted.
Definitely makes sense when warranty is involved. Now, if you are replacing the pads yourself, there is no warranty anyways (read the fine print) so if the rotors are not grooved or corroded and you just want brakes, you CAN get away without replacing the rotors. Up here in "salt country" that doesn't happen too aften any more, because the rotors are usually pretty scaly before the pads get beyond half wear. The new hybrid ceramic pads are showing some promise in reducing the rotor corrosion - might actually get full pad life out of both the pads and rotors - but for pretty close to two hundred bux a set I sure hope so.
I have also got a set of "kevlar" aramid fiber (motorsport) pads on the one vehicle to see how they work out. Hard as hen's teeth to find around here, and they are "pretty proud of them" too, judging from the price. I've got the Kevlars on the Mysique and the Hybrids on the PT Cruiser When I had the Aerostar the only brakes that stopped it reliably and quietly without eating rotors were the "carbon metallic" pads. On the Pontiac TransSport it didn't matter what you put on for brakes because you were going to be taking it apart for wheel bearings or ball joints at least once a year anyway so the labour was already covered to replace the cheapest pads you could buy. What a peice of junk
Up here in salt country it is rare indeed to find a set of rotors that will last the life of a set of decent pads without requiring machining or replacement.
Happens once in a while, but it is definitely the exception rather than the rule.
Back when the rotors on front drive cars were mounted to the BACK of the hub and the front bearings needed to be pressed apart, it was a different story. We invested in an "on car" brake lathe to skim the rotors on Toyota Tercels because to remove them was a roughly 2 hour job and involved replacing seals and a "crush spacer". The oncar lathe could do the job in less than 15 minutes. Honda had a similar setup, and because they were replaced so often the "economy of scale" allowed the parts prices to drop to the point that if you were taking them apart anyway it just did not make ANY sense to machine the old rotors.
The same has transpired with generally all makes now - with the generally underbraked cars today, and the ecology limitations on brake pad material, rotors have become "consumables" and the price reflects that reality (in most cases)
Not true any more. The pads for my PT cruiser cost over double what the set of replacement rotors cost. Same for my Mercury Mystique. You CAN buy pads for roughly the cost of one rotor if you are buying the cheapest available of both.
Recommendation is to service the brakes twice a year - spring and fall
- to be sure the caliper sliders are not stuck, the pads are not stuck or worn, and the rotors are not corroded. Knocking off the ridge of rust from the edge of the rotors can extend the life of both pads and rotors significantly.
With some shops that is a definite truth - they will replace anything if you let them. However, a shop makes MORE money machining a set of rotors than they do replacing that same set of rotors, all things considered. Assuming nothing goes wrong with the job and they don't end up having to do the job over on their dime a month or two down the road.
In some parts of North America 125,000 miles on the original calipers is no stretch at all. Perhaps even on the original rotors - and with strictly highway miles?? Even a chance on the first set of pads if the driver is conservative in his driving habits.
In other parts of North America, in urban driving conditions, 30,000 miles on a set of pads and rotors would be almost miraculous, and
50,000 on the calipers would be uncommon, particularly without that "un-neccesary" bi-annual brake service that all the "crooked, unscrupuolous" mechanics try to stuff down your throat.Like the manufacturer of that orange oil filter used to say back in the sixties and seventies "you can pay me now, or you can pay me later"
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